[Xmca-l] Re: The Ideological Footprint of Artifacts
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Fri Jun 5 08:05:50 PDT 2015
I think that's just a little too poetic for me, Mike. I
couldn't say.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
On 6/06/2015 1:02 AM, mike cole wrote:
> So in David's use of the term, Andy, the ideological
> shadow of an artifact is the shadow of the system of ideas
> that it casts/embodies/affords...??
>
> mike
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 7:51 AM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Well, this is the whole issue of the ambiguity in how
> people use the word "ideology" isn't it, Lubmir?
> You use "ideology" in the pejorative sense, therefore
> good science cannot be ideological, only bad science.
> Fair enough. But I would go part way to the way David
> uses the word, ideology is a system of ideas, and
> science most certainly is a system of ideas, and also
> characteristic of a certain social strata or
> institution, but not thereby self-serving, dangerous, etc.
>
> :)
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> On 6/06/2015 12:43 AM, Lubomir Savov Popov wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Ideologies might include laws of nature (including
> the social nature of society) but this is not a
> requirement. Ideologies are systems of principles
> or ideas that justify political talk, action, and
> behavior in order to defend or obtain a bigger
> piece of the pie (put it simply).
>
> In this case, the natural science law by itself is
> not ideological. It becomes ideological when it is
> included in the body of an ideology, when it is
> appropriated by a group of people to serve their
> objectives. But this doesn't make a natural law
> ideological by itself. Now, you might say that the
> discovery or formulation of a natural science law
> might be influenced by political ideology. This is
> a completely different talk. Bolshevik ideology
> influenced the discovery of the principle of the
> leading role of the proletariat. You can tell me
> if this this is a real law in the social realm or
> an ideological construct. Certain social
> "discoveries" in totalitarian or authoritarian
> countries claimed to be based on science and to be
> scientific laws of nature, but in effect these
> were ideological constructions in disguise.
>
> There is a major difference between science and
> ideology as social institutions. The goal of
> science is to understand the world as it is (or
> the closest approximation); the goal of ideology
> is to defend our socioeconomic position at any
> rate, no matter what. Ideology can use science or
> might pretend to be using science, which is most
> often the case. If we mix science and ideology, if
> we idologize science, we make a dangerous mix that
> can kill billions of people (so far only a few
> hundred million in and around two world wars).
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lubo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> xmca-l-bounces+lspopov=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+lspopov
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Blspopov>=bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:bgsu.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of
> Andy Blunden
> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:31 AM
> To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Ideological Footprint of
> Artifacts
>
> So for example, Lubomir, if a natural scientist
> formulates a law of nature which stands up to the
> test of time for over a century (e.g. Darwin), it
> surely is ideological, but would you claim that it
> reflects the interests of Charles Darwin (and
> maybe other biologists) and does not have within
> it a universal truth. (NB not = objective or
> universal truth, but "has within it" or "has a
> basis in universal experience,"
> etc.) Is it really all relative??
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> <http://home.pacific.net.au/%7Eandy/>
> On 6/06/2015 12:19 AM, Glassman, Michael wrote:
>
> I don't know if this helps but in researching
> this term a few years ago with a student we
> found the term emerged right after the French
> revolution. Instead of basing a social system
> on the activities of the populace and building
> up from these there was a movement to base the
> political system on a set of ideals. This was
> disparaged I guess by a number of the more
> intense revolutionaries and they began to call
> this group of idealists ideologues - leading
> to the idea of basing your vision of
> government (or expanded to almost anything) in
> a set of abstract ideals. I believe it was
> Marx who remarked that these French ideologues
> were walking on their heads - the goal of
> Marxists was to flip them back over so they
> are walking on their feet again (I believe
> this is what people often confuse as Marx
> flipping Hegel on his head - I have never been
> able to find a quote that backs that up. If
> anybody does know of it please let me know).
>
> Interestingly side note is that Thomas
> Jefferson was in France at the time and
> brought back the idea of ideology to the
> United States wanting to develop a system
> based on ideology and not practice. The
> French eventually flipped over a few times,
> but in the United States we have been mired in
> ideology since Jefferson's return.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman
> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces%2Bmglassman>=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu>]
> On Behalf Of Lubomir Savov Popov
> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2015 10:03 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The Ideological
> Footprint of Artifacts
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> A core definition of ideology in the political
> sense should highlight that it is a system for
> defending the social position/status that
> individuals and groups acquire in the economic
> process. All the rest is derivative. In that
> light, politics is also an instrument for
> defending or obtaining a desired position in
> the socio-economic process.
>
> In the professions, the word/term ideology is
> often used to denote a system of general
> believes and principles that drive
> professional decision making.
>
> Political ideologies affect design decision
> making and in that way affect the organization
> of artifact functions and morphology. And of
> course, professional ideologies drive this
> process overtly.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Lubomir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> All there is to thinking is seeing something noticeable
> which makes
> you see something you weren't noticing which makes you see
> something
> that isn't even visible. N.McLean, *A River Runs Through it*
>
>
>
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