[Xmca-l] Re: Nissen on working with youth
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Wed Feb 11 22:09:28 PST 2015
In Nissen's theory a collective is a project, not something imagined. A
project does entail a figured world a la Dot Holland, but a figured
world lacks a collective motive which unites the collective. A figured
world is just a field of individual competition for rewards.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
Larry Purss wrote:
> This thread is focusing on Nissen's work as presented in the two articles
> attached.
>
> I would like to return to the "journal of Dialogic Pedagogy" article on
> page A25.
>
> He describes his concept of *"collective" *as a term which brings together
> meaning and sense.
> He writes,
>
> "I suggest the concept of *collective* as a kind of *subject*. A community
> whose singular existence is no longer accidental, nor simply a function of
> a shared project, but self-constituted and self-conscious, mediated by its
> precarious relations to other subjects - including, importantly,
> participants - as these relations are formed *in and with* cultural
> standards under singular circumstances. Recognizing itself as recognized
> by these others. In the terms of Hegel's dialectics, it is a singular "we"
> that exists *in and for itself *as an "us". The implication is that
> empowerment involves recognition as participant of recognized
> collectives."
>
> I would suggest that Nissen's concept "collective" may be considered a
> "figural world" that in being seen "as such" becomes that which is
> imagined.
>
> Another central concept that Nissen uses is "prototypical" as indicating
> the way or approach of modelling practises as "embodying" concrete
> universals. Another world with similar quality would be "incarnating"
> concrete universals. Nissen is suggesting Freire's work on
> "conscientization" can be used as a "prototypical model" and in this way
> can be transported to other places and times such as Copenhagen and working
> with youth on the streets.
> Nissen is asking how concepts such as "collectives" and "prototypical" can
> be related to different traditions that carry what seem like different
> meanings but may potentially share a common sense. [theme]
>
> For example he asks,
>
> "How did *conscientization* develop from Christian *conscience* and
> Enlightenment *consciousness*, and how did it later transform into a
> psychologized empowerment?" This question is addressed as this movement is
> explored in the article.
>
> Prototypical concrete universals are *theoretical, but they do not easily
> translate* to an immediate common sense. They must be mediated within
> *collectives* and therefore do not lend themselves to simple and
> reductionist standardized concepts. [such as in dictionaries].
> To understand prototypical concepts we need time and effort to first take
> the prototypes seriously, in their own right, and then time and effort [as
> models] to make them relevant as they are translated across space and time.
>
> I hope I have done justice to Morten Nissen's understanding of the concepts
> "collectives" and "prototypes" which found insightful and I hope to explore
> further. I would recommend reading the two articles. He has thought deeply
> on these "themes"
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:45 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Very interesting, Larry. So some ideas are tracking here.
>>
>> Concerning:
>>
>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is
>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you.
>>
>> And not from a Vygotskian perspective? Do Bakhtin and Voloshinov part ways
>> here?
>> I am pre-occupied with a series of other tasks and cannot turn back to
>> these texts
>> at present but am reading the discussion with a lot of interest and doing
>> my best to keep up.
>> mike
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:20 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Mike for this lead. I will google her work.
>>>
>>> I also have downloaded the other Morten Nissen article written for the
>>> Journal of Dialogic Pedagogy. That paper referenced a work by Fernanda
>>> Coelho Liberali [Creative Chain in the Process of Becoming a Totality]
>>> In the article is an extended discussion of "meaning" and "sense"
>>>
>> comparing
>>
>>> and contrasting Vygotsky's and Bahktin's approaches to these ideas.
>>> It is interesting that Vygotsky references "smysl" as "sense" while
>>>
>> Bahktin
>>
>>> references "smysl" as "themes".
>>>
>>> I will offer a glimpse into the way Liberali is approaching "meaning" .
>>>
>>> He points out that within a Bahktinian perspective znachenie [meaning] is
>>> the *arena* for the evolution of the opposition between the I/you.
>>>
>>> A. A. Leontiev [2002a] affirms that mastery of meaning is the most
>>> important way in which individual behaviour can be mediated through
>>>
>> social
>>
>>> experience ... realized through various significations ....
>>> Therefore znachenie introduces an idea of the power of existence *yet to
>>> come. The power of becoming *or "zone" of potential development. In *this
>>> sense *[of meaning] the "zone" leads to the possibility of creativity...
>>> Fundamentally, it indicates meaning *as the potential for human beings
>>> within the "zone"*. The "place" where human beings get together to
>>>
>> create
>>
>>> new meanings through the sense they share together in the chain of
>>> activities they take part in throughout their lives.
>>>
>>> I once again return to Zinchenko's "hypothesis" that it is in the act of
>>> imagining "inner form" that inner form comes into being. It is for this
>>> "reason" that I use this "method" of presenting versions of znachenie and
>>> smysl and in this process of presenting versions am participating in a
>>>
>> zone
>>
>>> of shared creation through imagining inner form [and outer form].
>>> As Zinchenko mentioned he is haunted by the image of oscillating sense
>>>
>> and
>>
>>> meaning.
>>>
>>> If others would like a copy of Liberali's article I could send. It is
>>>
>> only
>>
>>> one version of one perspective of meaning and sense but is engaging with
>>> the power of becoming within zones.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 4:26 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Larry.
>>>>
>>>> Locally we have been attracted by the idea of "figured worlds" which we
>>>> learned from the work of Dotti Holland. A local colleague, Chandra
>>>>
>>> Mukerji,
>>>
>>>> has written persuasively about, for example, the construction of the
>>>> gardens at Versaille and is many practices as creating the space to
>>>>
>>> imagine
>>>
>>>> Paris as the new (imagined!) Rome. This idea seems to capture of a lot
>>>> what you are gesturing toward in your invocations of space, field,
>>>> ,,,,,,,,,etc. and that activities that constituted it as a space.
>>>>
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Greg,
>>>>> I would answer "yes" that everywhere peoples "care" about "forming
>>>>> persons".
>>>>>
>>>>> So from this recognition of multiple centers of "care" [and also
>>>>>
>>> multiple
>>>
>>>>> standards] how do we embrace "bildung" but avoid ideological
>>>>>
>>>> imperialism??
>>>>
>>>>> I would suggest the notion of "places" as "spaces of formation" that
>>>>>
>>> are
>>>
>>>>> exploring "situated care" and "situated agency". This involves
>>>>>
>> ethical
>>
>>>>> questions of "care" to be explored and developed within novel
>>>>>
>>> formations
>>>
>>>>> [places]. I would point out that many of these places are using
>>>>>
>>> notions
>>>
>>>>> such as "hybrid" places that are not merely subjective and not merely
>>>>> objective but "third spaces" of transformation. I would also suggest
>>>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>>> are imagining certain "kinds" of persons with certain "dispositions"
>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>> abide within these formative "places" [or spaces]
>>>>>
>>>>> Places where we can [with care] bring our notions of "bildung" and
>>>>>
>> ask
>>
>>>>> questions of who decides, about what, in which situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Places [zones, clearings, fields, circles, etc] from which we
>>>>>
>> form
>>
>>>>> hybrid cultural forms.
>>>>> Places not as "literal" but "imaginal" could be ... places, possible
>>>>> places, which in creating/discovering THIS "scene" [as an
>>>>>
>> instantiation
>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> the possible] is realizing and articulating "our culture". [and
>>>>>
>>> making
>>>
>>>>> "real"]
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this forming places always have to be a dialectical struggle??
>>>>>
>> Is
>>
>>> my
>>>
>>>>> question a pastoral utopian type question which will not be able to
>>>>>
>>>> breath
>>>>
>>>>> and come "to life"??
>>>>>
>>>>> Interpretive community is another way to picture or figure this
>>>>>
>>> "place".
>>>
>>>>> How powerful are "models" for showing or indicating the possibility
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> bringing to form an ethical kind of "approach"?? Not standards but a
>>>>> different notion of "facets" [as faces of the possible] Always
>>>>>
>>> situated,
>>>
>>>>> never re-producible but using "models" to show the possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Always in full recognition that one person's utopia may be another's
>>>>> ideological imperialism.
>>>>> Never going beyond the ethical [as the piety of questions].
>>>>>
>>>> De-constructing
>>>>
>>>>> the Eurocentric notion of "bidung" and opening a place for hybrid
>>>>>
>> forms
>>
>>>>> neither purely subjective nor purely objective. Third spaces.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Greg Thompson <
>>>>>
>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> And note that this piece articulates very nicely with the issues on
>>>>>>
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>>> other thread about the transferrability of pedagogy across
>>>>>>
>>>> socio-cultural
>>>>
>>>>>> contexts, or as Nissen says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> " the question whether and how standards of educational practice
>>>>>>
>> can
>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>>> transferred across great spatio-temporal and socio-cultural
>>>>>>
>> distances
>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>>> far from straightforward
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and simple: addressing a Brazilian audience with Danish
>>>>>>
>> experience, I
>>
>>>> was
>>>>
>>>>>> impelled to reconsider it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would add that this piece also articulates with Martin Packer's
>>>>>>
>>>> issues
>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> "constitution" in that Nissen suggests that pedagogy is the
>>>>>>
>> "forming
>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>>>> persons".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That also takes us back to bildung - is this ideological
>>>>>>
>> imperialism?
>>
>>>>>> I would argue, with Nissen (I think), that it is not, but rather
>>>>>>
>>>>> approaches
>>>>>
>>>>>> a cultural universal. The particular forms vary dramatically from
>>>>>>
>> one
>>
>>>>>> cultural context to the next but it seems to me that peoples
>>>>>>
>>> everywhere
>>>
>>>>>> care very much about "forming persons".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:17 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Morten's article from J. Dialogical Pedagogy, "Meeting youth in
>>>>>>>
>>>>> movement
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and on neutral ground" attached. I thought this had been posted
>>>>>>>
>>>> before
>>>>
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>>>> part of the discussion. Apologies.
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>> PS-- Check out the journal. Open access, interesting, or so I
>>>>>>>
>>> think.
>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with
>>>>>>>
>>> an
>>>
>>>>>> object
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>> 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>>
>>> object
>>>
>>>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object
>> that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>>
>>
>
>
>
More information about the xmca-l
mailing list