[Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games

[mike cole]

Laughter as an index of fun seems right, David. The origins of laughter are
very early in human ontogeny.... not sure how early.

The Calvin and Hobbes were very helpful -- as well as being fun.

mike

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>
wrote:

> Thanks Rolf - Calvin and Hobbes was a lot of fun, but not play.   A little
> later I am going to go play basketball with a lot of people who are better
> than me - which is play but often not a whole lot of fun.
>
> And life goes on.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces+mglassman=ehe.ohio-state.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Rolf Steier
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 10:07 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games
>
> Some insight from Calvin and Hobbes (series of 3 strips)...
>
> [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image 2][image: Inline image 4]
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:05 PM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Wolfgang Koehler, the Gestalt psychologist whose work on chimpanzees
> > so impressed Vygotsky (see, inter alia, Chapter Four of Thinking and
> > Speech), remarked that contrary to what Mark Twain said humans are not
> > the only species that laughs. Chimpanzees on Tenerife where he worked
> > used to offer food to his hens, and then, when the hens tried to eat
> > it, they would pull the food away and eat it themselves with a huffing
> > sound, which Koehler interpreted as laughter. Anyone who watches
> > elementary school children having fun notices almost right away that
> > one of the most elementary forms of fun is not at all collusion
> > between subversives against the higher powers but precisely the
> > opposite: individualistic acts of aggression and aggrandizement
> > precisely against children perceived to be more helpless, who offer
> "fun" with impunity.
> >
> > So I think the real question, as always, is how higher forms develop
> > (and actually, Greg, I was quite serious when I said that I thought
> > imaginary situations and abstract rules represented developmentally
> > higher forms of play). One possibility that occurs to me is a kind of
> > "self parody". That is, if you are looking for fun with impunity, one
> > of the few really reliable sources might be making fun of yourself.
> > Self-directed fun then becomes something like self-directed speech,
> > something that is internalizable as a kind of imaginary situation or
> even an imaginary self.
> >
> > But there are always limits to impunity. Over the last few days I've
> > been watching with horror the cell phone videos made from apartment
> > windows in Tianjin, where twenty tons of TNT went up in a huge
> > fireball that was both immediately lethal to over a hundred people and
> > toxic to countless others in the long term. The cell phone videos
> > always have sound tracks filled with laughter and obscenities (in both
> > Chinese and English--some were made by locals and some by
> > expatriates). And the sort of things that people exclaim when they are
> > having fun. And then the shock wave shatters the apartment window and
> there is blood everywhere.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> > R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and
> > > fun
> > are
> > > important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery
> > > and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we
> > > enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that
> > > seemingly rigid
> > rules
> > > and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is
> > > a
> > kind
> > > of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun
> > > listed
> > in
> > > Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people
> > > recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful
> > > interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the
> 'loosening'
> > > of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves
> > > to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can
> > > build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of
> > > trust between
> > the
> > > 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing
> > > and 'making fun OF' someone.
> > >
> > > I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part
> > > in the negative connotations usually now associated with
> > > 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially
> > > safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous
> > > because they encourage each
> > other
> > > to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may
> > > be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Rod
> > >
> > > On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a
> > > leading activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental
> > > psychologists do not appear to make use of the term and I do not
> > > know who does.
> > >
> > > Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to
> > > still have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it.
> > >
> > > And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized
> > > in different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with
> > > english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg.
> > >
> > > A tangled web, me thinks.
> > >
> > > I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the
> > > two domains, however they turn out to be constituted.
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That's great, Robert.
> > >
> > > I have been playing with translations and back-translations between
> > Russian
> > > and English.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake <
> > boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED.
> > > > which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution.
> > > > See below.
> > > > *Robert*
> > > >
> > > > *Oxford English Dictionary*
> > > >
> > > > *Etymology:*  probably < fun *v.*
> > > > <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75468#eid3558958>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > †*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke.
> > > >
> > > > 1699   B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew*   *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery
> > Trick.
> > > >
> > > > 1719   in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259   A Hackney Coachman he did
> > buy
> > > > her, And was not this a very good Fun.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *2.*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or
> > gaiety,
> > > > drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or
> > > > pleasure.(Johnson
> > 1755
> > > > stigmatizes it as ‘a low cant word’; in present use it is merely
> > somewhat
> > > > familiar.)
> > > >
> > > > 1727   Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words*   Tho' he talk'd much of virtue,
> > his
> > > > head always run Upon something or other she found better fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1749   H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354   Partridge..was a
> > great
> > > > Lover of what is called Fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1751   E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3,   Don't mind me tho'— For
> all
> > > my
> > > > Fun and Jokes.
> > > >
> > > > 1767   H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99   Vindex..looked smilingly
> > about
> > > > him with much fun in his face.
> > > >
> > > > *a*1774   A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10
>  It
> > is
> > > > fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue.
> > > >
> > > > 1790   R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561
> >  The
> > > > mirth and fun grew fast and furious.
> > > >
> > > > 1836   Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7   ‘What's the fun?’
> said
> > a
> > > > rather tall thin young man.
> > > >
> > > > 1845   S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90   His wit and humour delightful, when
> > it
> > > > does not degenerate into ‘fun’.
> > > >
> > > > 1849   E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331   Being better
> > > > mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of
> > > > the
> > > fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1887   M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325   Most footballers play
> > for
> > > > the fun and the fun alone.
> > > >
> > > > 1889   J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42   There is no fun in doing
> > nothing
> > > > when you have nothing to do.
> > > >
> > > > 1891   S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50,   I do not see
> the
> > > fun
> > > > of going to hotels of the first class.
> > > >
> > > > 1934   *Punch* 9 May 526/1   A Rector in an unapostolic fury is
> rather
> > > fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1954   *Economist* 20 Mar.   His book has all the charm of science
> > > fiction;
> > > > it is enormous fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1958   *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1   The clothes were Jacobean, and fun
> > to
> > > > wear.
> > > >
> > > > *(Hide quotations)*
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f
> > alse
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to
> > > > ridicule. *for or in
> > > > fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good,
> > > > great
> > > fun*
> > > > :
> > > > a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very
> > > > quickly, vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of
> the thing*:
> > for
> > > > amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to
> > > > have sexual intercourse.
> > > >
> > > > 1737   H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17,   I can't help making fun of
> > > > myself.
> > > >
> > > > 1826   M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247   Then you
> > > won't
> > > > make fun of me, will you?
> > > >
> > > > 1834   S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24   They put
> their
> > > > hats on and began to laugh like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1840   T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145   The American..in a dry way began to
> > ‘poke
> > > > his fun’ at the unfortunate traveller.
> > > >
> > > > 1848   J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98   Stickin'
> together
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1848   E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73   Carsons' mill is
> blazing
> > > away
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1849   E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29   You would be very
> > sorry
> > > if
> > > > your mamma was to..break it for fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1857   T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273   The bolts
> > went
> > > to
> > > > like fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1860   T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82   Who
> knows
> > > but
> > > > Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount
> > > > guard
> > > over
> > > > the production of the holy fire at Easter? ‘What fun!’
> > > >
> > > > 1871   B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145   He may pretend in fun
> > > that
> > > > he has a bad memory.
> > > >
> > > > 1876   M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104   The races are great fun.
> > > >
> > > > 1877   *Independent* 19 July 15/2   Little Tad commissioned
> lieutenant
> > by
> > > > Stanton, ‘just for the fun of the thing’.
> > > >
> > > > 1891   N. Gould *Double Event* 1   He's such good fun, and he's so
> > > > obliging.
> > > >
> > > > 1893   J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2   *To have* (or
> > > *do*)
> > > > *a
> > > > bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour.
> > > >
> > > > 1895   H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331,   I suppose the
> > > wood-carver
> > > > was poking fun at him?
> > > >
> > > > 1903   M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425   Amateur
> mimes..go
> > in
> > > > for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing.
> > > >
> > > > 1958   *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4   The clerks..get their own
> back
> > > by
> > > > unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French
> > > commercial
> > > > honesty.
> > > >
> > > > 1961   M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198   Ambrosia had pushed
> Edgar
> > > and
> > > > the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears.
> > > >
> > > > *(Hide quotations)*
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> > http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=f
> > alse
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used
> > > > ironically;
> > > > *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.*
> > > >
> > > > 1879   W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51   We..had a good passage to
> > > > Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had
> > broken
> > > > out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly
> > > > had
> > > with
> > > > the Chinkies.
> > > >
> > > > 1897   *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1   The engineer officers who are
> > engaged
> > > in
> > > > carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their
> > > > fair
> > > share
> > > > of ‘the fun’.
> > > >
> > > > 1898   *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1   It is possible that there may be
> > rare
> > > > fun by-and-by on the Nile.
> > > >
> > > > 1920   ‘Sapper’ *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155   We've had lots of fun
> and
> > > > games since I last saw you.
> > > >
> > > > 1940   N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66   Farther on, however, you
> come
> > to
> > > > jolly fun and games—great notices.
> > > >
> > > > 1948   E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78   *Fun and games*, any
> > sort
> > > of
> > > > brush with the enemy at sea.
> > > >
> > > > 1948   ‘N. Shute’ *No Highway* iii. 70   ‘Fun and games,’ he said.
> ‘The
> > > > boffin's going mad.’
> > > >
> > > > 1952   E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260   Beneath the
> > orderly
> > > > conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of
> > > > ‘fun and games’.
> > > >
> > > > 1954   C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22   If it happened
> because
> > > > somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd,
> > > > somebody is going to be sorry.
> > > >
> > > > 1966   J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59,   I headed the car in the
> > direction
> > > of
> > > > the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local
> drivers.
> > > >
> > > > 1970   *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3   Mr. Brown also
> expects
> > > the
> > > > fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new
> > > > legislation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson
> > > > <ababson@umich.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got
> > > > rejected,
> > > > > so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more
> > > > > active
> > here?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach
> > > > > I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young
> people.
> > On
> > > > > another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of
> > ideologies
> > > > of
> > > > > life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and
> > > > > fun
> > are
> > > > > expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those
> > > > > ideologies
> > are
> > > > > different and similar culturally and historically.
> > > > >
> > > > > For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more
> > relevant
> > > > > to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and
> > culture
> > > > > across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of
> > > > > experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think
> > > > > of
> > > play
> > > > > and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood
> > > > > or
> > > young
> > > > > adulthood.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this
> > > > conversation.
> > > > > As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the
> > > > > relation of
> > > this
> > > > > conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the
> > constitution
> > > of
> > > > > the body and how it is expected to change through and after
> > > > > life,
> > > namely
> > > > as
> > > > > we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors
> > > > > who
> > > are
> > > > > physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we
> > > > > can or
> > > > should
> > > > > carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young
> > > > > spirit
> > like
> > > > > cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to
> > > > > the
> > > > above!
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew Babson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Lecturer
> > > > > Graduate School of Education
> > > > > University of Pennsylvania
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between
> > having
> > > > fun
> > > > > > and playing.  How do they differ? Does their relationship, if
> > > > > > they
> > > are
> > > > > not
> > > > > > reducible one to the other, change over the course of
> development?
> > > Odd
> > > > > how
> > > > > > the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse.
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science
> > > > > > with
> > an
> > > > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > sent from my phone
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > > Associate Professor
> > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading Georgia Southern
> > > > University
> > > > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group P.
> > > > O. Box 8144
> > > > Phone: (912) 478-0355
> > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > > *He not busy being born is busy dying.* Bob Dylan (1964).
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
> > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
> > > ________________________________
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-- 

It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch