[Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games
HENRY SHONERD
hshonerd@gmail.com
Wed Aug 19 15:12:08 PDT 2015
Larry,
I agree with you, even though I seem to be contradicting myself. I mean that play and games can be synergistic. I am sure I have seen this with kids. Bending the rules in childhood is not unlike the playing with concepts done as adults. It’s what creative people do. It’s what makes all language use creative to some extent, some uses (e.g. poetry) being more creative than others. One might even call the grammar of a language the “kanon”, a structured inventory of conventional linguistic units, where unit status is the entrenchment of linguistic expression due to constant use.
I can’t remember who proferred very recently the attached article (forgive my poor memory, forgive the highlights) by Vygotsky, Imagination and Creativity in Childhood, but it reminded me of Langacker’s take on grammar, which he calls Cognitive Grammar. Though Langacker, until now, has not devoted much ink to how discourse works, he has always been very clear that grammar is usage based. And all language “stretches” the grammatical resources, some uses stretch those resources more than others.
Henry
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> On Aug 19, 2015, at 3:10 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does this notion of fun also tie into the notion of the Greek meaning of "kanon meaning rule" .
> There are idealized codes or rules or regularities or canons that are expected to guide our participation. To transgress these moulds or modes we often do so in a spirit of fun or carnl or festival to introduce a different way of undergoing "an" experience.
> So the transgression is also a way of continuing to stay within the relation to the "kanon".
> Fun may have a serious side in learning the "kanon"
> Larry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "HENRY SHONERD" <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> Sent: 2015-08-19 11:17 AM
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fun &Games
>
> Rod,
> Linking fun and transgression make a whole lot of sense to me. Robert Lake’s etymologyical proffer confirms that. David Kellogg, in this thread, associated play with role and game with rule. I think someone who is having fun is “playing the clown” by bending rules, which is risky for both the clown and someone trying to stick to the rules. Risky for the clown: “Go to the office, you clown!” And for the teacher: “Make me!” Classroom management is often a teacher’s bag of tricks for managing the clowns in class, so that s/he can get on with the lesson. When the clown tries to short circuit a game by breaking the rules, you get a clear idea how fun and games are different things. I am recalling right now stories of myself in both roles: clown and teacher, sometimes combining the roles, challenging the very rules, implicit mostly, for what typically goes on in the classroom.
>
> This is fun, Mike! Glad you wondered. Makes for great wandering.
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>> On Aug 19, 2015, at 11:21 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I think the relationships between play, playfulness, enjoyment and fun are important features of social and cultural interactions but slippery and resistant to any kind of definition. Indeed I suspect that we enjoy playfulness and fun partly because it reminds us that seemingly rigid rules and constraints can be played with and loosened up. I think there is a kind of exuberant playfulness, just one of the layered meanings of fun listed in Robert's post, which depends on interaction- when two or more people recognise that they are engaging in a shared exchange of playful interactions they can enter into an escalating spiral, as the 'loosening' of conventional constraints allows them to reveal more of themselves to each other. The mix of enjoyment with a touch of riskiness can build to exuberant hilarity which can also reinforce a feeling of trust between the 'players'. Though not always- it can sometimes veer off into teasing and 'making fun OF' someone.
>>
>> I wonder whether the sense of the riskiness of fun might play a part in the negative connotations usually now associated with 'collusion'. People who WORK together (collaborate) are socially safe but people who PLAY together (collude) are socially dangerous because they encourage each other to loosen the hold of social constraints and expectations. Which may be more fun for the players than for others outside their circle.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Rod
>>
>> On 19 Aug 2015 5:22 pm, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> My queries were going in a direction with yours, Rolf. Play is a leading
>> activity in LSV-Elkonin-Leontiev. But somehow developmental psychologists
>> do not
>> appear to make use of the term and I do not know who does.
>>
>> Robert's etymology is certainly interesting. Modern usage seems to still
>> have a bit of that tricksterism dwelling within it.
>>
>> And, like Helen, the way this confused semantic space is organized in
>> different languages is fascinating. I have been playing with
>> english-russian and then checking various options for backtranslationg.
>>
>> A tangled web, me thinks.
>>
>> I have this feeling that imagination plays different roles in the two
>> domains, however they turn out to be constituted.
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> That's great, Robert.
>>
>> I have been playing with translations and back-translations between Russian
>> and English.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 7:30 AM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is interesting (and fun) to look up word origins in the OED.
>>> which reveals a significant cultural/historically shaped evolution.
>>> See below.
>>> *Robert*
>>>
>>> *Oxford English Dictionary*
>>>
>>> *Etymology:* probably < fun *v.*
>>> <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75468#eid3558958>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> †*1.* A cheat or trick; a hoax, a practical joke.
>>>
>>> 1699 B. E. *New Dict. Canting Crew* *Fun*, a Cheat or slippery Trick.
>>>
>>> 1719 in T. D'Urfey *Wit & Mirth* V. 259 A Hackney Coachman he did buy
>>> her, And was not this a very good Fun.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *2.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *a.* Diversion, amusement, sport; also, boisterous jocularity or gaiety,
>>> drollery. Also, a source or cause of amusement or pleasure.(Johnson 1755
>>> stigmatizes it as ‘a low cant word’; in present use it is merely somewhat
>>> familiar.)
>>>
>>> 1727 Swift *Misc. Epit. By-words* Tho' he talk'd much of virtue, his
>>> head always run Upon something or other she found better fun.
>>>
>>> 1749 H. Fielding *Tom Jones* III. ix. vi. 354 Partridge..was a great
>>> Lover of what is called Fun.
>>>
>>> 1751 E. Moore *Gil Blas* Prol. sig. A3, Don't mind me tho'— For all my
>>> Fun and Jokes.
>>>
>>> 1767 H. Brooke *Fool of Quality* I. 99 Vindex..looked smilingly about
>>> him with much fun in his face.
>>>
>>> *a*1774 A. Tucker *Light of Nature Pursued* (1777) III. iii. 10 It is
>>> fun to them to break off an ornament, or disfigure a statue.
>>>
>>> 1790 R. Burns *Tam o' Shanter* in *Poems & Songs* (1968) II. 561 The
>>> mirth and fun grew fast and furious.
>>>
>>> 1836 Dickens *Pickwick Papers* (1837) ii. 7 ‘What's the fun?’ said a
>>> rather tall thin young man.
>>>
>>> 1845 S. C. Hall *Bk. Gems* 90 His wit and humour delightful, when it
>>> does not degenerate into ‘fun’.
>>>
>>> 1849 E. E. Napier *Excursions Southern Afr.* II. 331 Being better
>>> mounted than the rest of his troop, [he] pushed on to see more of the fun.
>>>
>>> 1887 M. Shearman *Athletics & Football* 325 Most footballers play for
>>> the fun and the fun alone.
>>>
>>> 1889 J. K. Jerome *Idle Thoughts* 42 There is no fun in doing nothing
>>> when you have nothing to do.
>>>
>>> 1891 S. Baring-Gould *In Troubadour-land* iv. 50, I do not see the fun
>>> of going to hotels of the first class.
>>>
>>> 1934 *Punch* 9 May 526/1 A Rector in an unapostolic fury is rather fun.
>>>
>>> 1954 *Economist* 20 Mar. His book has all the charm of science fiction;
>>> it is enormous fun.
>>>
>>> 1958 *Listener* 25 Dec. 1085/1 The clothes were Jacobean, and fun to
>>> wear.
>>>
>>> *(Hide quotations)*
>>> <
>>> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *b.* Phr. *to make fun of* , *poke fun at* (a person, etc.): to
>>> ridicule. *for or in
>>> fun* : as a joke, sportively, not seriously. *(he, it is) good, great fun*
>>> :
>>> a source of much amusement. *like fun*: energetically, very quickly,
>>> vigorously. *what fun!* how very amusing! *for the fun of the thing*: for
>>> amusement; *to have fun (with)* : to enjoy (a process); *spec.* to have
>>> sexual intercourse.
>>>
>>> 1737 H. Walpole *Corr.* (1820) I. 17, I can't help making fun of
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> 1826 M. M. Sherwood *Lady of Manor* (ed. 2) IV. xxi. 247 Then you won't
>>> make fun of me, will you?
>>>
>>> 1834 S. Smith *Sel. Lett. Major Jack Downing* ix. 24 They put their
>>> hats on and began to laugh like fun.
>>>
>>> 1840 T. Hood *Up Rhine* 145 The American..in a dry way began to ‘poke
>>> his fun’ at the unfortunate traveller.
>>>
>>> 1848 J. R. Lowell *Biglow Papers* 1st Ser. iv. 98 Stickin' together
>>> like fun.
>>>
>>> 1848 E. C. Gaskell *Mary Barton* I. v. 73 Carsons' mill is blazing away
>>> like fun.
>>>
>>> 1849 E. Bulwer-Lytton *Caxtons* I. i. iv. 29 You would be very sorry if
>>> your mamma was to..break it for fun.
>>>
>>> 1857 T. Hughes *Tom Brown's School Days* ii. iii. 273 The bolts went to
>>> like fun.
>>>
>>> 1860 T. P. Thompson *Audi Alteram Partem* III. cxxvi. 82 Who knows but
>>> Volunteer Rifles may make a campaign in the Holy Land, and mount guard over
>>> the production of the holy fire at Easter? ‘What fun!’
>>>
>>> 1871 B. Jowett tr. Plato *Dialogues* I. 145 He may pretend in fun that
>>> he has a bad memory.
>>>
>>> 1876 M. M. Grant *Sun-maid* I. iii. 104 The races are great fun.
>>>
>>> 1877 *Independent* 19 July 15/2 Little Tad commissioned lieutenant by
>>> Stanton, ‘just for the fun of the thing’.
>>>
>>> 1891 N. Gould *Double Event* 1 He's such good fun, and he's so
>>> obliging.
>>>
>>> 1893 J. S. Farmer & W. E. Henley *Slang* III. 86/2 *To have* (or *do*)
>>> *a
>>> bit of fun*, to procure or enjoy the sexual favour.
>>>
>>> 1895 H. A. Kennedy in *19th Cent.* Aug. 331, I suppose the wood-carver
>>> was poking fun at him?
>>>
>>> 1903 M. Beerbohm *Around Theatres* (1924) I. 425 Amateur mimes..go in
>>> for private theatricals..just for the fun of the thing.
>>>
>>> 1958 *Times Lit. Suppl.* 7 Feb. 73/4 The clerks..get their own back by
>>> unmasking frauds and..having fun with the low standard of French commercial
>>> honesty.
>>>
>>> 1961 M. Dickens *Heart of London* ii. 198 Ambrosia had pushed Edgar and
>>> the girl in there with the admonition to have some fun, dears.
>>>
>>> *(Hide quotations)*
>>> <
>>> http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/75467?rskey=SpD3uz&result=1&isAdvanced=false
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *c.* Exciting goings-on. Also *fun and games*, freq. used ironically;
>>> *spec.* amatory play. *colloq.*
>>>
>>> 1879 W. J. Barry *Up & Down* vii. 51 We..had a good passage to
>>> Hong-Kong. When we arrived, the first Chinese war with Britain had broken
>>> out, and there was every appearance of plenty of fun to be shortly had with
>>> the Chinkies.
>>>
>>> 1897 *Daily News* 13 Sept. 7/1 The engineer officers who are engaged in
>>> carrying out some of the Sirdar's plans get much more than their fair share
>>> of ‘the fun’.
>>>
>>> 1898 *Westm. Gaz.* 28 Oct. 3/1 It is possible that there may be rare
>>> fun by-and-by on the Nile.
>>>
>>> 1920 ‘Sapper’ *Bull-dog Drummond* vi. 155 We've had lots of fun and
>>> games since I last saw you.
>>>
>>> 1940 N. Mitford *Pigeon Pie* iii. 66 Farther on, however, you come to
>>> jolly fun and games—great notices.
>>>
>>> 1948 E. Partridge *Dict. Forces' Slang* 78 *Fun and games*, any sort of
>>> brush with the enemy at sea.
>>>
>>> 1948 ‘N. Shute’ *No Highway* iii. 70 ‘Fun and games,’ he said. ‘The
>>> boffin's going mad.’
>>>
>>> 1952 E. Grierson *Reputation for Song* xxix. 260 Beneath the orderly
>>> conduct of her bar there was always present the possibility of ‘fun and
>>> games’.
>>>
>>> 1954 C. Armstrong *Better to eat You* ii. 22 If it happened because
>>> somebody is having fun-and-games with Miss Sarah Shepherd, somebody is
>>> going to be sorry.
>>>
>>> 1966 J. Porter *Sour Cream* v. 59, I headed the car in the direction of
>>> the coast road. We had the usual fun and games with the local drivers.
>>>
>>> 1970 *Globe & Mail (Toronto) *26 Sept. B3/3 Mr. Brown also expects the
>>> fun and games of tax haven subsidiaries to disappear with the new
>>> legislation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Andrew Babson <ababson@umich.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike, first as an aside, I tried to post this earlier and it got
>>> rejected,
>>>> so, updating my contact info now. A sign I should get more active here?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the great question, which is relevant to an approach
>>>> I am developing for analyzing interactional choices of young people. On
>>>> another level of analysis, we can think of the wide range of ideologies
>>> of
>>>> life course stages, specifically how certain kinds of play and fun are
>>>> expected of accepted at certain ages; and also how those ideologies are
>>>> different and similar culturally and historically.
>>>>
>>>> For what I'm working on the first interactional level is more relevant
>>>> to class, culture and education and the latter about youth and culture
>>>> across the lifespan. The twain do meet in that we often think of
>>>> experimentation, dynamism, flexibility and freedom when we think of play
>>>> and also when we think of youth, whether referring to childhood or young
>>>> adulthood.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a big step to consider where "fun" might fit in this
>>> conversation.
>>>> As an LSE anthro grad I can't also help but think of the relation of this
>>>> conversation to Maurice Bloch's work in Madagascar on the constitution of
>>>> the body and how it is expected to change through and after life, namely
>>> as
>>>> we get older we get bonier and therefore closer to the ancestors who are
>>>> physically only bone. It's interesting to think of how far we can or
>>> should
>>>> carry these analogic ideological constructions---the young spirit like
>>>> cartilage and the old spirit like bone---and how they relate to the
>>> above!
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> ---------------
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Babson, Ph.D.
>>>> Lecturer
>>>> Graduate School of Education
>>>> University of Pennsylvania
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, August 17, 2015, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have been led to wonder -- what is the relationship between having
>>> fun
>>>>> and playing. How do they differ? Does their relationship, if they are
>>>> not
>>>>> reducible one to the other, change over the course of development? Odd
>>>> how
>>>>> the category of fun is absent from developmental discourse.
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>>>>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> sent from my phone
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Lake Ed.D.
>>> Associate Professor
>>> Social Foundations of Education
>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>>> Georgia Southern University
>>> Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
>>> P. O. Box 8144
>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
>>> Statesboro, GA 30460
>>> *He not busy being born is busy dying.*
>>> Bob Dylan (1964).
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
>> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch
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