[Xmca-l] Re: Foucault

[Robert Lake]

There you go Henry. You have touched on a vital topic
that needs more attention. Your 60's experience provides
a great back story for your passion against bullying.

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <hshonerd@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
> I have not and, off the top of my head, think it wouldn't be of great
> interest to anyone else. Like I say, it's embarrassing to be on either end
> of that kind of bullying. None of what happened to me was unforgivable,
> though it has always made me very sensitive to bullying in ANY context,
> especially between peers. It happens all the time in classrooms, in
> schools. The small cuts, nicely fashioned to keep one in line. "Classroom
> management" keeps a lid on it. Kids aren't naturally mean, it's learned. It
> should be at the center of a dialog in schools that pretend to be
> inclusive. I think of "multicultural" courses for student teachers focused
> on gender, class, race, religion, are ABOUT bullying but not praxis, at
> least from my own experience trying to teach it to student teachers. I was
> part of the problem, though I think I taught the courses in good faith. I'm
> pretty sure that's at the root of the dialog we are having here: How to
> have it in schools. Well, really throughout society. What's good for kids
> is good for adults. ZPD rules!
> Henry
>
> On Sep 18, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Henry,
> > Have you written of your '60's experiences anywhere?
> > If not you might consider it.
> > RL
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Mike,,
> >> A little historical ontology of myself. I was in Berkeley and Cuba with
> >> the Weathermen in the 60s when we were thinking in terms of a critique
> of
> >> not just A culture, but CULTURE: Che, revolution. Middle class white
> kids
> >> mostly, we even thought we might be willing to die to make a better
> world,
> >> like Che. Mostly we hurt each other's feelings trying to decide whose
> >> consciousness was highest. It's embarrassing to talk about it. Now I'm a
> >> retired education prof working as a sub in two great charter schools in
> >> Albuquerque, breaking good. Reading the XMA/XMCA dialog, I find much
> better
> >> grounding than consciousness raising sessions of the 60s, and I find
> >> Bloch's optimism (See Andy's website) warranted. Like the song goes: I'm
> >> still willin'. I have been scrambling to catch up on the thinking of
> >> "academic" giants as I read your posts, convinced you wouldn't post
> them if
> >> you didn't think they were important for this dialog. In other words I
> >> trust this dialog as it looks back. I understand Mike's problem with
> >> posting the Amy and Jed talk, though I think it is helpful that we have
> >> taken on the messiness of the moment. It's looking forward, the Novum,
> >> where I find my optimism. I don't think it's crazy to think that CHAT
> can
> >> be "popularized",  can be part of changing popular narratives. I love
> >> Vygotsky because he worked so feverishly, with others, to make that
> happen,
> >> for children. It seems to me that the reason Amy and Jed are important
> for
> >> this dialog is because schools ARE the key to changing the narrative.
> Or so
> >> I think and feel. And getting real dialog into the schools, not test
> prep,
> >> is what will change everything. That's the concept I think is worth
> aiming
> >> for. Again, so I think and feel.
> >> Henry
> >>
> >> On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:15 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the recap, Martin. Then we got to Phillip who talked about
> >>> theorizing and autobiography as part of the Foucault thread. Is the
> move
> >>> from ourselveS to ourselF important?
> >>>
> >>> With the critique of culture issue, it seems that the sense of A
> culture
> >> as
> >>> AN historically formation of human lifeways and Culture, as the medium
> of
> >>> all forms of human life, are getting conflated in the discussion. The
> >>> project of criticizing various values and practices that are part of
> the
> >>> cultural conditions of our own society (conditions plural) seems
> doable,
> >> if
> >>> necessarily contest. A critique of human Culture as a medium of human
> >> life
> >>> seems considerably more problematic.
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Martin John Packer <
> >> mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I was simply responding to Paul M.'s (rhetorical?) question as to
> >> whether
> >>>> there might be a state of nature to which we could return that would
> be
> >>>> outside culture. I said that this is not possible for homo sapiens -
> we
> >>>> need culture to survive. Michael G. then suggested that if we can't
> step
> >>>> outside culture we cannot critique it. I replied again in the
> negative,
> >> and
> >>>> made a passing reference to Foucault who engaged in research that was
> >>>> critical of culture from inside: one of his ideas was to work with
> >>>> marginalized groups to explore ways of living that the mainstream has
> >>>> ignored. Larry then suggested that Foucault was following
> >> Merleau-Ponty's
> >>>> lead, and Phillip responded that Foucault was more influenced by
> >> Hyppolite.
> >>>> I countered by suggesting that Foucault's research program - exploring
> >> what
> >>>> he called "the historical ontology of ourselves" - in other words, how
> >> we
> >>>> are constituted historically (and culturally) as specific kinds of
> >> person -
> >>>> was at least consistent with the interests of Merleau-Ponty and
> Sartre.
> >>>>
> >>>> Phew! What a tangled web we weave.
> >>>>
> >>>> Martin
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sep 18, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Greg Thompson <
> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I thought it was Martin who had mentioned Foucault's "historical
> >> ontology
> >>>>> of ourselves"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd love to hear more too (note this is where Martin's book The
> Science
> >>>> of
> >>>>> Qualitative Research leaves off. I'd love to hear the argument
> >> enlivened
> >>>>> once again).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin?
> >>>>> -greg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:25 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> My apologies if my "chaining" off your comment about cocktail
> parties
> >>>>>> distracted from the main point of the ongoing discussion, Phillip.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Could you say more about what an historical ontology of oneself
> >> means? I
> >>>>>> can understand the truth of the idea that In any interaction with
> >>>> others,
> >>>>>> whether at a cocktail party or in an academic discussion group, one
> is
> >>>>>> creating one's own history and that an autobiography is a self
> history
> >>>> from
> >>>>>> ego's point of view. If one theorizes, then theorizing is a mode of
> >>>>>> activity/experience that becomes the material of autobiography.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am still back on David's earlier claim that cultural historical
> >>>>>> approaches to understanding human development do not view data as
> ways
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> testing/evaluating/improving theory. I may have gotten confused by
> >>>> thinking
> >>>>>> that the discussion on Foucault, Merleau-P, et. Were part of that
> >>>>>> discussion. A lot swirling around at once.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A pathway out of the thicket would be gratefully received.
> >>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, White, Phillip <
> >>>> Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> as you write, Martin, yes, they had similar descriptions of their
> >> work
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Foucault came to describe his work overall as a "historical
> ontology
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> ourselves." Certainly both Sartre and Merleau-Ponty were
> philosophers
> >>>> on
> >>>>>>> ontology, and of history."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> the difference is, i believe, that Foucault identified with those
> >>>> peoples
> >>>>>>> who have been marginalized: prisoners, those deemed mentally ill,
> and
> >>>>>>> homosexuals.  he said that his writings were autobiography.  and
> i've
> >>>>>> come
> >>>>>>> to understand my own work as a way of autobiography.  i've begun to
> >>>> think
> >>>>>>> of theory as a way of autobiography.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> i believe that i recognize a great deal of autobiography performed
> >> here
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> xmca - just as one sees autobiography performed at a cocktail
> party.
> >>>>>>> (that's a great metaphor!)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> p
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Development and Evolution are both ... "processes of construction
> and
> >>>> re-
> >>>>>> construction in which heterogeneous resources are contingently but
> >> more
> >>>> or
> >>>>>> less reliably reassembled for each life cycle." [Oyama, Griffiths,
> and
> >>>>>> Gray, 2001]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>>>> Assistant Professor
> >>>>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>>>> Brigham Young University
> >>>>> Provo, UT 84602
> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Development and Evolution are both ... "processes of construction and
> re-
> >>> construction in which heterogeneous resources are contingently but more
> >> or
> >>> less reliably reassembled for each life cycle." [Oyama, Griffiths, and
> >>> Gray, 2001]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > *Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
> > Social Foundations of Education
> > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > Georgia Southern University
> > Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
> > P. O. Box 8144
> > Phone: (912) 478-0355
> > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > Statesboro, GA  30460
>
>
>


-- 

*Robert Lake  Ed.D.*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
Secretary/Treasurer-AERA- Paulo Freire Special Interest Group
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460