[Xmca-l] Re: Spinoza on xmca

Tue Sep 16 07:26:16 PDT 2014

Peter,

I was fascinated with this extension of my quick impusive reflection. In
particular this phrase you wrote:

 Even more: Serres has set himself the task of being a means of
communication (a medium) between the sciences
and the arts - the Hermes of modern scholarships.

What I find so intriquing is the PERSONAL reference [or personifying
imaginal configuration]  This SENS [sense AND direction] to BE/BECOME *a
medium* that is not *subjective* or a *reductio* to the interior individual
but rather is a movement of EXCESS.  Calling us BEYOND [and in THAT sense
transcending our fixation on the reduction [or abstraction] of either the
sciences or the arts.
Yes *the trickster* as a personifying image [THE medium] by CHOICE [or
disposition] .

Is Serres  project the *even more* of your commen hubris or *channeling*??
THIS opens up what Merleau-Ponty referred to as an *ontological
rehabilitation*.  THROUGH *expressive cognition* [communication as medium]
we share in this EXCESS [contrasted with reductio]
Poetic rhetoric AND ratio/analysis BOTH expressed in our *sayings*
channeled as personal mediums.

Just wondering. Will have to read Serres as continuing in the tradition of
the *trickster*

Larry

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 1:15 AM, peter jones <h2cmng@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Michel Serres has written on these themes....
>
> Fifty
> Key Contemporary Thinkers by John Lechte, Routledge, 1994.
>
> With the recognition of the interrelation between different sciences
> and different forms of knowledge, as well as between science and different
> artistic practices, has come Serres's effort to plot the way that different
> knowledge domains interpenetrate. Even more: Serres has set himself the
> task of being a means of communication (a medium) between the sciences
> and the arts - the Hermes of modern scholarships. With the advent of
> information
> science, a new figure for representing science becomes possible: this is
> the 'model' of communication. Accordingly, we have three elements: a
> message,
> a channel for transmitting it, and the noise, or interference, that
> accompanies
> the transmission. Noise calls for decipherment; it makes a reading of the
> message more difficult. And yet without it, there would be no message.
> There is, in short, no message without resistance. What Serres initially
> finds intriguing about noise (rather than the message) is that it opens
> up such a fertile avenue of reflection. Instead of remaining pure noise,
> the latter becomes a means of transport. Thus in the first volume of the
> Hermes series noise is analysed as the third, empirical element of the
> message. Ideally, communication must be separated from noise. Noise is
> what is not communicated; it is just there as a kind of chaos, as the
> empirical
> third element of the message, the accidental part, the part of difference
> that is excluded. Every formalism (mathematics, for example) is founded
> on the exclusion of the third element of noise. Every formalism is a way
> of moving from one region of knowledge to another. To communicate is to
> move within a class of objects that have the same form. Form has to be
> extracted from the cacophony of noise; form (communication) is the
> exclusion
> of noise, an escape from the domain of the empirical.
>
>
> In his book, The Parasite, Serres recalls that 'parasite' also means
> noise (in French). A parasite is a noise in a channel. And so when
> describing
> the rats' meals in a story from the fables of La Fontaine - the meals of
> two parasites - Serres also refers to noise: 'The two companions scurry
> off when they hear a noise at the door. It was only a noise, but it was
> also a message, a bit of information producing panic: an interruption,
> a corruption, a rupture of information. Was this noise really a message?
> Wasn't it, rather, static, a parasite?
>
> see also:
>
> http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/joyeux-anniversaire/
>
>
> Peter Jones
> Lancashire, UK
> Blogging at "Welcome to the QUAD"
> http://hodges-model.blogspot.com/
> http://twitter.com/h2cm
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 September 2014, 8:43
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Spinoza on xmca
>
>
> Bahktin the trickster.
> In Greek mythology that was Hermes the messenger who brought messages
> between [mediated] the divine and the human realms. Bahktin definitely
> overlaps with Hermes [and hermeneutics]
> Larry
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 8:42 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <hshonerd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Greg,
> > I'm convinced you are right. Like I say, Bakhtin just keeps popping up.
> > The trickster? Rebelais? What is that about?
> > Henry
> >
> > On Sep 14, 2014, at 8:49 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > One reason I mention him is because of resonances with ideas.
> > > But I also mention him as a kind of trickster figure as well as a
> student
> > > of the trickster in writing (his dissertation was on Rabelais).
> > > I also mention him as a writer who seems authentically engaged with
> > > meaningful/emotive aspects of human existence (e.g., Toward a
> Philosophy
> > of
> > > the Act, and Author and Hero in Aesthetic Activity).
> > > And finally, I mention Bakhtin because I'm still not convinced that the
> > > deep treasures of Bakhtin's work has yet been mined out.
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 8:13 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> > hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Greg,
> > >> Thank you for you good words and great question. I knew about Bakhtin,
> > but
> > >> have been finding him everywhere in the articles and chat of XMCA over
> > the
> > >> last week. Seriously.
> > >> Henry
> > >>
> > >> On Sep 13, 2014, at 2:26 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I would hope that a certain amount of irreverence would be dear to
> most
> > >>> people on this list!
> > >>> But seriously Henry, have you come across Bakhtin's work at all?
> > >>> Seems like another that you might want to throw in with the crowd of
> > >>> healthy irreverents.
> > >>> -greg
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> > hshonerd@gmail.com
> > >>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Mike and David,
> > >>>> This is seriously getting to be a club that I, like Groucho,  won't
> > >> join,
> > >>>> if it takes me as a member. I think all of this seriously evokes
> > Andy's
> > >>>> contention, in his notes for the upcoming presentation at the ISCAR
> > >>>> conference (which XMCA has gotten) that, "Adults can grasp true
> > >> concepts,
> > >>>> and can change society, and a social theory has to treat adults as
> > >> adults,
> > >>>> and this is what the projects approach allows us to do. " If "adult"
> > >> means
> > >>>> the same as "serious", you can see why I have my doubts about
> joining
> > >> the
> > >>>> Unserious Scholar Club. On the other hand, if I can have some fun,
> as
> > in
> > >>>> the laughing warrior (forget gender stereotypes here, and dare me to
> > >> talk
> > >>>> about Jihad), then that's what I'm talking about. Incidentally, I
> > loved
> > >>>> Andy's notes. I could so relate it to CG. The emergent character of
> > >> project
> > >>>> realization he talks about applies very well to discourse, as you
> can
> > >> see
> > >>>> in the articles by Langacker I have sent out. Discourse IS a project
> > and
> > >>>> its outcome is typically not entirely clear in the minds of the
> > >>>> interactants as they negotiate its waters. XMCA, of which this email
> > is
> > >> a
> > >>>> "turn",  is a prototypical "work in progress", as Andy puts it,
> since
> > we
> > >>>> clearly don't know where this will all end up. But I hope it can be
> > fun
> > >>>> along the way.
> > >>>> Henry
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sep 6, 2014, at 1:51 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Henry-- There goes my pile of books that need to be read before
> > bed
> > >>>> time!
> > >>>>> Spinoza goes up there right next to Dead Souls.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> However, David having already claimed the mantle of unserious
> > scholar,
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>> you having made the same claim, I am afraid that I have to make
> > >> precisely
> > >>>>> the same claim on the unrefutable grounds that no one pays me any
> > >> longer
> > >>>>> for what I do so I get to be as unserious as i can seriously be!
> > >>>>> mike
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Henry G. Shonerd III <
> > >>>> hshonerd@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Mike,
> > >>>>>> All I can say now is that Spinoza is famously quoted as having
> said,
> > >>>> "The
> > >>>>>> more clearly you understand yourself and your emotions, the more
> you
> > >>>> become
> > >>>>>> a lover of what is." This quote happens to appear in the
> > introduction
> > >>>> to a
> > >>>>>> very popular self help book, Loving What Is, by Byron Katie
> (2002).
> > I
> > >>>>>> bought the book , obviously, because I thought I needed help. It
> > did,
> > >>>> but
> > >>>>>> it also introduced me to Spinoza. And that has been a deeper
> "help".
> > >> So,
> > >>>>>> from a personal perspective, I can totally understand how Spinoza
> > and
> > >>>>>> periizhvanie would be connected. For all of you ESL teachers out
> > >> there,
> > >>>> who
> > >>>>>> doesn't remember Krashen on the "affective filter" and I have been
> > >>>> seeing a
> > >>>>>> lot on character and education lately. Oh yes, and how failing is
> > >>>> important
> > >>>>>> to eventual success. Teasing out issues in the education of
> > >>>>>> non-mainstreamers, and recognizing how the current system is toxic
> > for
> > >>>>>> everyone, I think Spinoza's analysis and the narrative of his life
> > are
> > >>>>>> powerful. Vygotsky hits me the same way. Cantor, the
> mathematician,
> > >> and
> > >>>>>> Pierce, the philosopher/logician/semiotician, also constantly come
> > up
> > >>>> for
> > >>>>>> me. They were ridiculed by the received cognoscenti of the time,
> so
> > >>>> much so
> > >>>>>> that the suffered mental breakdowns. But they pushed on to develop
> > >>>> tools in
> > >>>>>> math and semiotics that seem to me are complementary with
> Vygotsky.
> > >>>> Again I
> > >>>>>> get to take the role of unserious scholar here, so think of my
> > >> thoughts
> > >>>> as
> > >>>>>> gaming on line and don't take the game too seriously.
> > >>>>>> Henry
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Sep 5, 2014, at 6:42 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi David and Henry--
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> David-- I was intrigued by your comment that Spinoza is a
> > >> controversial
> > >>>>>>> topic on xmca. I googled Spinoza on the main web page and came up
> > >> with
> > >>>> 4K
> > >>>>>>> plus hits (!!). My own impression is that few on this list, me
> > >>>> included,
> > >>>>>>> have engaged in serious study of Spinoza let alone the imprint of
> > >>>> Spinoza
> > >>>>>>> on Vygotsky.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> What is the nature of the controversy? What is at stake? The
> topic
> > is
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>>> particular interest to me at present because I have been part of
> > >>>>>>> discussions with people who are focused on Vygotsky's use of
> > >>>> perezhivanie
> > >>>>>>> in his later work, where the relation of emotion and cognition
> is a
> > >>>>>> central
> > >>>>>>> concern and Spinoza is clearly relevant.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Henry and anyone interested in chasing down what has been written
> > >> about
> > >>>>>>> various topics in xmca chatter, take advantage of the nice google
> > >>>> search
> > >>>>>> at
> > >>>>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> (who enmeshed in the sense/meaning distinction in all of its
> > >>>> multilingual
> > >>>>>>> confusifications at present)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > >>> Assistant Professor
> > >>> Department of Anthropology
> > >>> 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > >>> Brigham Young University
> > >>> Provo, UT 84602
> > >>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 882 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >
> >
> >
>