[Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL
mike cole
mcole@ucsd.edu
Tue Oct 21 17:05:57 PDT 2014
Right Huw. So an infrastructure exists. Building on it and linking it to
ongoing discussions might be a challenge.
mike
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 22 October 2014 00:11, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
> > No need for a taxonomy, Huw. We have long batted around the idea of a
> "key
> > word" list.
> > I think the current xmca facilities may make such an undertaking
> > achievable.... if there are achievers around ready to achieve it! :-)
> > mike
> >
>
> For sure. And it has been done in at least one variant. This is mostly
> Andy's take on things:
>
> http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 21 October 2014 22:28, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the heads up. I suppose when the search field is out of
> > > > sight it's out of site. :)
> > > >
> > > > _An idea_: How about a newcomer's page indicating list posting
> > > > preferences? Every list is its own culture and list cultures are
> tricky
> > > to
> > > > gauge sometimes for an outsider. I could write a lot about this as
> I've
> > > > thought about it a lot, but perhaps I shouldn't do that here or now,
> > > anyway.
> > > >
> > > > _Another idea_: Are there "Famous Conversations" that seem to embody
> > the
> > > > most meaning of exchange within the community? Ones that are
> memorable?
> > > > Perhaps even a "Hall of Fame"? That would be grand to read and to
> > learn.
> > > I
> > > > would be willing to help collect that material together alongside an
> > list
> > > > elder, if that is a worthwhile offer.
> > > >
> > > > _Third idea_: there could be trigger search links for keywords, such
> as
> > > > "unit of analysis," for example. These could be inserted on the
> > > vocabulary
> > > > page, which unfortunately I cannot find from the XCMA homepage even
> > > though
> > > > I know the page exists somewhere.
> > > >
> > > > _A last, but fluffy idea_: is it possible to post emoji's here? Or is
> > > that
> > > > too trendy and unsophisticated? Is anyone groaning just about now...?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Personally, I would say it wasn't "fluffy" enough, Annalisa. Mental
> > > imagery seems to be the preferred currency.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=site:lchc.ucsd.edu%2Fmca%2Fmail+%22mental+image%22
> > >
> > > If you keep a list of terms, questions etc, then there are a number of
> > ways
> > > these could get used. However, the challenge with a taxonomy here is
> > that
> > > you won't get unanimity on the big and little pictures, so it helps to
> > > bring your theories with you and to challenge them along the way.
> > >
> > > Welcome. :)
> > >
> > > Huw
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I hope these are useful offerings!
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Annalisa
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > > on behalf of mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:37 PM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL
> > > >
> > > > Hi Annalisa, Juan Et al
> > > >
> > > > At the home page of Lchc, Lchc at ucsd dot edu, there is a local
> Google
> > > > search of the site. I just googled Marx unit of analysis and there
> > appear
> > > > to be a lot of useful entries. Often that is a good place to start
> with
> > > > most of our topics.
> > > >
> > > > For reasons I do not understand, people seem to have a hard time
> > > > remembering that the archives are so easy to access! Maybe we need a
> > > banner
> > > > or something as a reminder? Suggestions for greater user
> friendliness
> > > > welcome always.
> > > > Mike
> > > > On Tuesday, October 21, 2014, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello!
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for directing my attention to your paper. I've downloaded it
> > > > > accordingly.
> > > > >
> > > > > I apologize to the list if as a newcomer I am contributing to any
> > > > tiresome
> > > > > redundancy; I am not clear whether there is a way to search the
> list
> > > > > archives or not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Annalisa
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <javascript:;> <
> > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <javascript:;>> on behalf of
> Martin
> > > John
> > > > > Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co <javascript:;>>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 9:57 AM
> > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Juan, Annalisa,
> > > > >
> > > > > The relationship between LSV and Marx is certainly something that
> we
> > > have
> > > > > discussed here on xmca. My own contribution includes a paper
> > > published a
> > > > > few years ago, which I would be happy to send to you:
> > > > >
> > > > > Packer, M. J. (2008). Is Vygotsky relevant? Vygotsky’s Marxist
> > > > psychology.
> > > > > Mind, Culture, and Activity, 15(1), 8-31.
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin
> > > > >
> > > > > On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:27 AM, Annalisa Aguilar <annalisa@unm.edu
> > > > > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Juan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with you that one must understand Marxism to understand
> > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > clearly. Darwin's theory too. My grasp upon these topics is tenuous
> > > and I
> > > > > would benefit to know more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In my past, it has been difficult to enjoy dispassionate
> > > conversations
> > > > > about Marxism in my circles without the distractions of how much I
> > > don't
> > > > > know about Marxism, or how much Marx didn't know about capitalism;
> > > > neither
> > > > > position is helpful. Perhaps Marxism is a hot potato still.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Certainly there are claims that even the Soviets did not
> understood
> > > > > Marxism properly and that that may be why Vygotsky had such a hard
> > > time.
> > > > If
> > > > > Marxism has been so difficult a topic, why should it be different
> for
> > > us
> > > > > who have come late to the table? We do have the power of hindsight,
> > but
> > > > has
> > > > > this helped?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For any thinker's work, it is highly relevant to understand the
> > > > > contemporary milieu in which that person worked. That is why I look
> > to
> > > > > historical context to unlock Vygotsky's work, not just his texts.
> > > > However,
> > > > > I find a political specter rises from the grave when discussing
> > Marxism
> > > > and
> > > > > kills all prospects before understanding can begin. It is
> > perplexing. I
> > > > > wonder if it is why Vygotsky will remain elusive to us
> post-moderns.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wish I could read the Castorina & Baquero paper, but I cannot
> > read
> > > > > Spanish very well. Would it be asking too much of you to list the
> > > > relevant
> > > > > points made in that paper? I would very much be interested!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Annalisa
> > > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <javascript:;> <
> > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <javascript:;>> on behalf of Juan
> > > > Duarte <
> > > > > juanma.duarte@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:39 AM
> > > > > > To: ablunden@mira.net <javascript:;>; eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > > Activity
> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: LSV versus ANL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I´m sorry for couldn´t answer -neither red all the messages-
> > > > previously.
> > > > > > But what i was reffering was precisely the fact that the "unit of
> > > > > analysis"
> > > > > > in Vigotsky is not understandable without taking Marx and Engels
> > > > method,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > Vygotsky himself writes, for example, in his manuscript The
> > > historical
> > > > > > meaning of the chrisis in psychology.
> > > > > > There´s is the need of psychology´s own Das Kapital. And the
> units
> > of
> > > > > > analisis in LV are built in a dialectical way. So, it´s -for me,
> at
> > > > > least-
> > > > > > surprising to read so much about the marxist psychologist, and
> > > > preciselly
> > > > > > about method, and very few comments about the fact he was
> marxist.
> > To
> > > > > > understand the concept of "unit of analysis" is to know, for
> > example,
> > > > the
> > > > > > method of Das Kapital, where Marx takes the value as a cell, unit
> > of
> > > > > > diverse and opposits, change value and use value, wich cannot be
> > > > > separated
> > > > > > without loosing the whole. So is the use of Meaning (unit of
> though
> > > and
> > > > > > language), for example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, that´s my point. And know that there are many that thake
> this
> > > > point
> > > > > > of view. Andy, for example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks a lot for the fruitful interchange.
> > > > > > I send you, if anyone is interested, an article about the marxism
> > in
> > > LV
> > > > > (in
> > > > > > spanish). Here, in Argentina, Jose Castorina and Ricardo Baquero
> > have
> > > > > > worked through this line, in a very interesting work.
> > > > > > Juan Duarte (Argentina).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2014-10-20 21:08 GMT-03:00 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > <javascript:;>>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Returning to Leontyev's critique of Vygotsky, ANL claimed that
> > > > > >> perezhivanie, as a manifestation of the whole personality,
> cannot
> > be
> > > > the
> > > > > >> determinant of personality, because that would be a logical
> > circle.
> > > > But
> > > > > it
> > > > > >> seems to me that ANL failed to understand how Vygotsky’s
> analysis
> > by
> > > > > units
> > > > > >> allows him to avoid the reductionism into which ANL then
> ventures.
> > > If
> > > > a
> > > > > >> complex process is to be explained by something _else_, then its
> > > > > analysis
> > > > > >> is _reduced_ to the analysis of that something else. Analysis
> by
> > > > units
> > > > > >> allows Vygotsky to avoid reductionism because the analysis
> begins
> > > > from a
> > > > > >> concept of the whole complex process represented in a unit, not
> > the
> > > > > whole,
> > > > > >> but a small fragment of the whole, such that the whole can be
> seen
> > > as
> > > > > being
> > > > > >> made up of very many such fragments only. Absent Vygotsky's
> method
> > > of
> > > > > >> analysis by units, and Leontyev's Activity Theory is in danger
> of
> > > > > >> collapsing to a reductionism that actually explains nothing.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Andy
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> *Andy Blunden*
> > > > > >> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with
> an
> > > > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
> > object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
> >
>
--
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
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