[Xmca-l] Re: units of analysis? LSV versus ANL

[David Kellogg]

Mike, Martin....

I'm afraid I don't have the Russian text of the Leontiev article. I
just read the one that Andy send round, from the JREEP. (I also read
his reply to Leontiev, and I can only say that he has a lot more
patience with this sort of thing than I do--I really couldn't get past
the part about "fatalistic determinism".)

Martin expressed interest in the other lectures in the series, which
we are translating. I enclose two--first of all the Russian and rough
English translation of the one whose summary I sent round (Lecture
Five on Psychological Devleopment). But secondly the Russian and rough
English translation of his final lecture on neurological development,
along with the summarizing endnote I wrote. Notice that Vygotsky says
that psychology can be thought of as the function of the nervous
system!

David Kellogg
Hankuk University of Foreign Studies

(MIke--many thanks for bearding the Boesch quote for me!)

dk



On 18 October 2014 09:22, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
> David-- Since you have the Russian text, could you send a note with the
> Russian for this passage?:
>
>
> *Among these conditions, he encounters the fact of language, which is the
> medium of the “spiritual relations” established with it and constitutes an
> essential condition for the development of his social and intellectual
> consciousness. *
>
> Its as if culture is being turned into spirit and then called idealism and
> used as a very material hammer.
>
> mike
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co
>> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the clarification, Huw.
>>
>> I am pointing out that in his texts LSV writes of consciousness prior to
>> language (that is, in the preverbal infant), and of changes in
>> consciousness when the child starts to speak. Presumably he would not have
>> written such things if he believed that language is a necessary condition
>> (ontogenetically) for consciousness. If ANL attributed such a view to LSV,
>> he was incorrect, it seems to me.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2014, at 5:24 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The ANL's translation was:
>> >
>> > "The child, therefore, appears before us primarily as a subject of the
>> > mate- rial process of life. In the process of his development, he
>> > encounters ready- made, historically established conditions that
>> determine
>> > his existence as a social being. Among these conditions, he encounters
>> the
>> > fact of language, which is the medium of the “spiritual relations”
>> > established with it and con- stitutes an essential condition for the
>> > development of his social and intellec- tual consciousness. Thus,
>> > Vygotsky’s proposition that consciousness is a product of the child’s
>> > verbal communication under conditions of his activity and in relation to
>> > the material reality that surrounds him must be turned around: the
>> > consciousness of a child is a product of his human activity in relation
>> to
>> > objective reality, taking place *under conditions of language* and under
>> > conditions of verbal communication."
>> >
>> > You (Martin) wrote:
>> >
>> >> I see a difference, Huw. I just don't see the difference that the
>> >> difference makes.  And ANL cannot be correct: for one thing, in various
>> >> texts LSV writes about the character of consciousness in preverbal
>> >> children, and of how consciousness  is transformed by the acquisition of
>> >> language. This would hardly be possible if language were a necessary
>> >> condition for consciousness.
>> >
>> >
>> > So you're saying: That transformation of consciousness would not be
>> > possible if language were a necessary condition for consciousness.
>> >
>> > ANL is asserting that LSV is not being coherent in this paper with
>> respect
>> > to materialist formulations.  He is saying that it is weak.  He is also
>> > saying that the word is not the source of consciousness.  So what are
>> > saying that ANL cannot be right about?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Huw
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal with a natural science with an
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
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