[Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance

Wed Nov 26 02:16:19 PST 2014

Martin, the use of 'is' in an assertion about categories is to assert that
one category is a sub-category of the other.  Hence, 'a square is a
rectangle' is an assertion that a square is special kind of rectangle in
which both sides have the same length.

Best,
Huw

On 24 November 2014 at 22:13, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
wrote:

> Don't get your point, Huw. A rectangle is generally defined as having
> unequal sides, in contrast to a square, so that's not helping me. Obviously
> (I would think) I am not saying that consciousness is the entirely of
> matter.
>
> Perhaps you can help me in my struggle...
>
> Martin
>
> On Nov 24, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A small point, perhaps: "Consciousness is materially constituted".
> >
> > Stating that "consciousness is matter (or material)" is rather like
> saying
> > that a square is matter as opposed to saying that a square is a
> rectangle,
> > unless of course one intends to assert that consciousness is the entirety
> > of matter.
> >
> > Best,
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 November 2014 at 21:19, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Apologies! That was a response to something else entirely (major snow
> >> forecast following summer temps in the Philadelphia/NYC area). p
> >>
> >> Peter Smagorinsky
> >> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
> >> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> >> The University of Georgia
> >> 315 Aderhold Hall
> >> Athens, GA 30602
> >>
> >> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> >>
> >> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> >>
> >>
> >> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> >> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 4:02 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
> >>
> >> Amazing when juxtaposed with today's temps:
> >>
> >> [cid:image001.png@01D007FF.FEAF7170]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter Smagorinsky
> >>
> >> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
> >>
> >> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> >>
> >> The University of Georgia
> >>
> >> 315 Aderhold Hall
> >>
> >> Athens, GA 30602
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
> >>
> >> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer
> >> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:53 PM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Andy,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't see that being rude advances the conversation.  When I assert a
> >> position here in this discussion I try to base it on an argument,
> and/or in
> >> sources that we all have access to. I'm certainly not trying to cloud
> any
> >> issues, and I don't think that arguing from authority (one's own
> assumed)
> >> dispels the clouds.  I guess I simply don't have access to "a whole
> >> tradition of science."  :(
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To respond to your other message, yes, I am arguing that consciousness
> >> (and thinking) are material processes. They are consequences of (certain
> >> kinds of) matter in (certain kinds of) motion.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Against whom am I arguing? I am arguing against all those psychologists
> >> who argue that consciousness (and thinking) are mental processes -
> >> processes which they believe take place in some mysterious realm called
> >> "the mind" that is populated by "mental representations" of the "world
> >> outside." I deal with people who make this argument on a daily basis.
> They
> >> believe that the proper object of investigation for psychology is
> "mind,"
> >> and so they have no interest in setting, or culture, or practical
> >> activities.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, Haydi's message is the portion of Crisis that I pointed to in my
> last
> >> message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 24, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I am speaking from a whole tradition of science, Martin, not trying to
> >> translate Vygotsky's Russian.
> >>
> >>> You are an expert yourself in using the word "material" to cloud the
> >> issue so I hardly think I need give you lessons.
> >>
> >>> Read Haydi's message. It's all there.
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Andy
> >>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>> --
> >>
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>
> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>> Martin John Packer wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Andy, from where do you obtain this distinction between 'matter' and
> >> 'material'? Are we dealing here with two distinct words in Russian? Do
> you
> >> have any evidence that LSV draws such a distinction? One, of course, is
> an
> >> adjective and the other is a noun. But why would anyone apply the
> adjective
> >> to anything to which the noun would not also apply.
> >>
> >>>> Martin
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>> On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>> Annalisa,
> >>
> >>>>> It is impossible to take this conversation forward unless we
> establish
> >> some shared concepts and word meanings.
> >>
> >>>>> "Material" is a word which can be used very loosely and applied to
> >> almost anything. But "matter" (in this discourse) is a philosophical
> >> category denoting all that which exists outside of and independently of
> >> consciousness but is knowable through human activity. Any finite
> category
> >> (such as word, cosmos, thing, movement, ...) in some sense both outside
> of
> >> consciousness and a product of consciousness, but "matter" is the base
> >> category which distinguishes illusions, fantasies, phantoms, ideas,
> etc.,
> >> from what exists.
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>> You can mean anything you like by any of these words, but if the
> >> people you are talking to mean something else by the same words, then
> >> confusion can follow. We need to be on the same page.
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>> All the basic concepts are explained, with references for follow-up
> >>
> >>>>> reading here: http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT/WebHome
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>>>> ----
> >>
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>
> >>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Ok Andy, I want to give this the time it deserves, but when I say
> >> word is not material but form, what I mean is that to say word is
> material
> >> doesn't distinguish it from sound, because word and sound are the
> >> constituted identically. The difference is in form.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> If I may say, it's like saying fashion is nothing but fabric. This
> >> doesn't tell me anything about fashion and why I like Commes des Garçon
> and
> >> you like Vivian Westwood. I intuit at this point in time that form is
> the
> >> basis of culture, not material because almost everything is material.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> I would only make allowance for time and space, because neither one
> >> is material. If you tell me time is a clock, I'm going to laugh. As far
> as
> >> space, material is in space, but space is not "in" material, it is
> >> pervasive, but not "in" it. Space is not made of material. I think these
> >> conceptual distinctions are important.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> But that's me.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Kind regards
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Annalisa
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> ________________________________________
> >>
> >>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
> >> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden
> >>
> >>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 6:59 PM
> >>
> >>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>
> >>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Annalisa, making a distinction between matter and movement is
> >>
> >>>>>> problematic and was not my intention. The atoms which make up your
> >>
> >>>>>> body will be dancing somewhere else 7 years from now. In any case I
> >>
> >>>>>> meant "matter" in the philosophical sense, as that which exists
> >>
> >>>>>> independently of and outside of consciousness. So pressure waves in
> >>
> >>>>>> air are equally material as scratches on paper, characters on your
> >>
> >>>>>> screen or inscriptions on stone tablets.
> >>
> >>>>>> Because we are inclined to say that the little packet of sound you
> >>
> >>>>>> get when you say "ger" is 'the same word' as what is written a
> >>
> >>>>>> couple of inches back on this line, we easily forget that no word
> >>
> >>>>>> exists other than in one or another of its material instantiations.
> >>
> >>>>>> But we don't talk by mental telepathy, but only by placing material
> >>
> >>>>>> objects within the perceptual fields of another person, for them to
> >>
> >>>>>> interpret. It's when there is some breakdown in communication that
> >>
> >>>>>> you hyave to go back and look at the actual, material form you gave
> >> to your words.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Andy
> >>
> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>>>>> -----
> >>
> >>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>
> >>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>> Andy,
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>> Please explain how words are material. Do you mean this literally
> or
> >> metaphorically?
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>> I am prone to accept that mind is material, but of a different
> order
> >> than Grandma's apple pie, mountains or a vinyl record. I can't quite see
> >> how words are material. Sounds traveling through space are movements of
> >> material (air), so that to me would be like saying dancing is material,
> if
> >> dancing is material, then what is the body who dances? And how is the
> body
> >> different from the dance?
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>> Kind regards,
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>> Annalisa
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>