[Xmca-l] Re: Intellect and consciousness

[Larry Purss]

Mike,
I also would enjoy reading a few chapters of Kozulin's book as a summer
project.
 I read closely  Kozulin's reflections on tool and symbol and how it
contrasted with his interpretation of Activity Theory. Will be an
interesting conversation.
Larry






On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:56 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> By ALL MEANS lets discuss Rolf's paper as a priority! A reading of Kozulin
> seems like a nice summer activity.
> mike
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23 May 2014 16:43, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I have in fact been reading Alex's book, Larry.
> >>
> >> I recommend strongly his chapters on Tool and Symbol and Language and
> >> Thought.
> >>
> >> Especially the former I found to be unusually well presented in ways
> that
> >> helped me.
> >>
> >> The future that Alex was pointing towards looks a good deal like what
> >> became the concerns of the Comm department here at UCSD - a combination
> of
> >> humanities, social sciences, and arts with mediation as its central
> >> organizing concept.
> >>
> >> If some group of xmca-ites would like to jointly read a chapter or two,
> I
> >> would be glad to join in.
> >>
> >> mike​
> >>
> >>
> > Yes, count me in.  I think we should do Rolf Steier's paper justice
> first,
> > though, which I haven't even downloaded yet.
> >
> > Best,
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 7:33 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I want to thank everyone for their reflections on consciousness and
> >> > intellect.
> >> > Mike commented,
> >> > Well, myself I am following Larry's lead and reading Alex's book on
> >> > Vygotsky so that i can understand the context in which he brought this
> >> > topic up, and in the context of his general interpretation of core
> >> > Vygotskian concepts.
> >> >
> >> > I re-read Alex last comment in the epilogue of his book *Vygotsky's
> >> > Psychology* which gives his understanding of why he wrote this book.
> >> Alex
> >> > reads Vygotsky's legacy as having moved through 3 stages.
> >> > In the 1920's and 1930's the focus was on SOCIAL mediation to help
> >> create
> >> > the *new man*.
> >> > In the 1960's Vygotsky was re-discovered in the West as a response to
> >> > Piaget's quasi-naturalistic theory of development.
> >> >
> >> > In 1990, when the book was written Kozulin suggest a new plane opened.
> >> Here
> >> > is Kozulin's understanding of this third phase of Vygotsky's legacy.
> >> [page
> >> > 278]
> >> >
> >> > "The third plane of Vygotsky's theory, the contours of which are only
> >> just
> >> > emerging, presupposes both the re-evaluation of its origins and its
> >> > projection into the future of psychology. What in the 1920's appeared
> >> to be
> >> > a rather straight forward thesis of SOCIAL mediation, and in the
> 1960's
> >> as
> >> > a necessary correction to the overly individualistic approaches of
> >> Western
> >> > psychology, nowadays appears as a new problem emerging from the
> >> realization
> >> > that social and cultural mediatory mechanisms do not coincide.
> >> Vygotsky's
> >> > analysis of the crisis in psychology, earlier perceived as a critique
> of
> >> > psychology's past, is now recognized as an inquiry into the
> fundamental
> >> > mechanism of psychology's divergent development. The origins and
> >> context of
> >> > Vygotsky's theory are now being seen in a new light.; in the place of
> >> > comparisons to Pavlov, the Gestaltists and Piaget comes the context of
> >> > PHILOSOPHICAL HERMENEUTICS AND THE THEORY OF COMMUNICATIVE ACTION.  In
> >> an
> >> > even broader sense, what once looked like Vygotsky's contribution TO
> >> > psychology appears now as leading BEYOND psychology or at least beyond
> >> > traditional psychology and into the sphere of the human studies BASED
> on
> >> > the humanities, rather than the scientific model."
> >> >
> >> > Mike, how others *respond* to Kozulin's vision that a new plane based
> on
> >> > the humanities is a re-visioning that goes too far BEYOND Vygotsky or
> if
> >> > they acknowledge this third plane as a valid emerging of a
> hermeneutical
> >> > response is an open question.
> >> > Thought Kozulin's epilogue may generate more reflections and responses
> >> on
> >> > his perspective of the relation of [intellect] and [consciousness]
> >> >
> >> > Larry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > "A" paradigmatic exemplar will do, Mike.
> >> > > Vygotsky worked hard on the emotions, but my reading of his work on
> >> the
> >> > > emotions is that he did not bring his methodological work to a
> >> > > conclusive outcome, but I think nonetheless, writers of our time
> have
> >> > > been able to write Vygotskyan studies of the emotions, thanks to the
> >> > > fact that Vygotsky gave us an exemplar with study of the intellect.
> I
> >> > > take Vygotsky's work on the development of the personality through
> >> > > perezhivanija as *another* exermplar he left us.
> >> > >
> >> > > Andy
> >> > >
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > *Andy Blunden*
> >> > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > mike cole wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Well, myself I am following Larry's lead and reading Alex's book on
> >> > >> Vygotsky so that i can understand the context in which he brought
> >> this
> >> > >> topic up, and in the context of his general interpretation of core
> >> > >> Vygotskian concepts.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I would prefer 2 or three potential paradigmatic exemplars of
> >> > >> consciousness before I decided that one was THE paradigmatic
> >> exemplar,
> >> > >> especially when that examplar is intellect. Also at the end of T&L
> is
> >> > >> Spinoza and emotion.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> mike
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >> <mailto:
> >> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>     David, there is terminology, categorical distinctions, and the
> >> > >>     content of the science.
> >> > >>     Almost self-evidently, Thinking and Speech broke off at the
> >> > >>     threshold of the content of the science, and regretably, being
> a
> >> > >>     pioneer meant that his terminology was also unstable and
> >> > >>     rudimentary. My claim was that T&S was decisive in relaiton to
> >> the
> >> > >>     categorical distinctions underlying the science, despite the
> >> > >>     terminological mess.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>     I read Vygotsky as a Marxist, rather than as a linguist or a
> >> > >>     Phenomenologist or a teacher, all of which are I am sure
> >> > >>     legitimate standpoints for reading Vygotsky. But I think there
> is
> >> > >>     some basis for taking it that Vygotsky is using "consciousness"
> >> in
> >> > >>     line with Marxist terminology at the time indicating the entire
> >> > >>     class of phenomena encompassed by a general psychology, perhaps
> >> > >>     similar to what you mean by "general consciousness"?
> >> > >>     As to the distinction between "dialogical consciousness" and
> >> > >>     "intellect", if we are restricting "dialogic consciousnes"
> >> > >>     typologically to language use, then I think that that is too
> >> > >>     unstable and problematic for a categorical distinction. If on
> the
> >> > >>     other than we were to widen the meaning of "dialogical" to
> >> > >>     sign-use, then I would identify it with intellect. The spoken
> >> word
> >> > >>     is the *archetype* of sign-use, but not the only instance of
> >> > sign-use.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>     I remain of the view that T&S, and in particular thes closing
> >> > >>     lines, specify that he has devoted the book to a study of the
> >> > >>     *intellect* (the special) as a paradigmatic exemplar for
> >> > >>     psychological research into human *consciousness* (as a whole).
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>     Andy
> >> > >>     ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> ------------
> >> > >>     *Andy Blunden*
> >> > >>     http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>