[Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie

Wed Jul 9 03:40:41 PDT 2014

Dear Rod,
your interpretation just shows that word meaning is developing with
experience (You have appropriate and relevant obrazovanie to add many
associations). The same way any term has a whole semantic field of
associations and can be used in different contexts. Thus obuchenie more
readily would be used in a context of professional instruction: "он прошел
обучение" means that he learned something and we can expect that he knows
something; but one *does not* say that "Я прошла обучение у Лурии"
Образование more official and general
Министерство Образования, Академия образования, высшее образование; он
образованный человек, получил хорошее образование.
every time the context is important for interpretation.

Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut

On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:

> Can you say a bit more, Bella. I had understood obuchenie as including
> aspects of WHAT is taught in 'educational' exchanges (the explicit
> curriculum) and more subtle, personal features of what such exchanges
> reveal about the 'teacher' and the 'learner', so that more is learned than
> is taught and associations, values, priorities, social rules and customs
> etc. come to be wrapped around WHAT is taught. For me it is this 'aura' of
> what we know about what people we know think and feel about the things we
> know that converts 'knowing' into 'understanding' and I had suspected that
> this more general recognition of the learning associated with the person of
> the teacher might explain why some Russian academics tend to place
> themselves by listing a line of descent - I studies with X, who studied
> with Y, who studied with Vygotsky.
>
> The relationship between 'education' and 'instruction' is complicated,
> too. I think in England 'instruction' comes with a much stronger aura of
> 'chalk and talk' (and canes!) than it does in America and elsewhere but
> education is also increasingly used as a synonym for 'schooling'.
>
> So what sort of situations would obrazovanie be used in and when would
> obuchenie be more appropriate?
>
> All the best,
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> Sent: 09 July 2014 08:05
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: bildung and obuchenie
>
> obrazovanie usually is used in context similar to education and obuchenie
> in context of instruction
>
>
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Wagner Luiz Schmit <
> wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > I am reading some material regarding "bildung" now and thinking in
> > making some approach of Vygotsky "perezhivanie" as an "unit of
> > analysis" of "bildung" (expanding this unit from the unit of analysis
> > of personality - I think I read this in a text by Andy here
> http://goo.gl/u1hrCy).
> >
> > Anyway, doing some preliminary search on the net I found this quote (
> > http://goo.gl/4xgt09) pointing "Obuchenie" as different of "obrazovanie"
> > and that this later one is closer to "bildung". Any help from our
> > Russian speakers in detailing the meaning of these words?
> >
> > At least in my head when Vygotsky talks about a person development in
> > a more broad way, I relate this to "bildung". Is this a viable approach?
> >
> > Sorry for bringing this old discussion back to life.
> >
> > Wagner
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Greg Thompson
> > <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > In reading the article I just mentioned (in Anthropology and
> > > Education Quarterly), I got to thinking that bildung seems very
> > > similar to
> > obuchenie.
> > > I asked a Russian professor who happened to be in a classroom before
> > > a class I was teaching and she described a concept that seemed very
> > > similar to bildung. From what I could gather, obuchenie has the same
> > > sense of "cultivation" that seems to be at the heart of bildung. And
> > > of course I don't mean "cultivation" in the high cultural sense of
> > > being a
> > "cultivated"
> > > person (although this might have been part of what the early authors
> > > writing about "bildung" had in mind) rather I mean the idea of a
> > > full development of the human, not merely the dumping of information
> > > into the individual.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any sense about overlap between these concepts?
> > > Are they as similar as they seem to me?
> > > If different, then how so?
> > >
> > > And I wonder how people would feel about the term "character education"
> > as
> > > an English analogue to the German bildung and the Russian obuchenie?
> > >
> > > Yes, yes, yes, I know that this aligns with politics that make many
> > people
> > > sick to their stomach, but frankly, I'm interested in imagining a
> > politics
> > > that isn't so provincial as the American Left and Right so I'm
> > > always looking for politically polyvalent concepts. What do you
> > > think? Could
> > this
> > > be a concept that can work in politically polar opposite communities?
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >
> >
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