[Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam International
Huw Lloyd
huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
Tue Jan 21 17:21:07 PST 2014
I think in practical terms, it equates to things like turning off the
television etc.
The hopeful thing about a connected world is that we're somewhat more able
to look out for each other which we can do irrespective of whose bank
account has the big numbers in it.
I think the ethic aspect is actually an ethical aspect. True education is
more than fashion-ethics, such as a "work-ethic" etc. Ethical appreciation
comes with maturity. And, personally speaking, it is relations in
recognition of this that establish the richest kind of capital...
Best,
Huw
On 22 January 2014 00:46, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> Which means, does it not Huw, propagating a counter-ethic, so to speak,
> since arguments against an ethic are just words, and the maxim is always
> "do as I do not as I say." But an ethic is meaningful, I believe only
> within some collaborative endeavour. My relationship to you is meaningful
> only in connection of what we do, as we, together. I believe that "Do unto
> others as you would have them do unto you," is fine as far as it goes, but
> is inadequate to this mtulicultural, fragmented world.
>
> Andy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>
>
> Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Going back to reference to the bubble and social psychology, it seems to
>> me that the "super rich" are to be pitied too. I am not sure living in a
>> bubble is such a nice thing, especially given the immaturity required to
>> sustain it.
>>
>> I don't think it is the super rich which are to be combatted, rather it
>> is the inane notion that this is something to be admired or desired. This,
>> it seems to me, is a more obtainable and more rewarding exercise.
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22 January 2014 00:07, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> But your foundation is active in combatting inequality through
>> literacy. "Every step of real movement is more important than a
>> dozen programmes," as one very serious theorist said.
>> Andy
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/letters/75_05_05.htm
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe wrote:
>>
>> At 38 I am differing to my elders on this one...albeit, I
>> agree with Andy...too young to be pessimistic, but what I have
>> seen happen to black america has really disappointed me.
>>
>>
>> Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>> President
>> The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>> www.mocombeian.com <http://www.mocombeian.com>
>> www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>> <http://www.readingroomcurriculum.com>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Andy Blunden
>> Date:01/21/2014 6:36 PM (GMT-05:00)
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam International
>>
>> David, you are quite correct that agreement on fundamentals of
>> theory is
>> by no means necessary for collaboration (though on the xmca
>> list this is
>> feasible). In a sense, the very meaning of "collaboration" is
>> that such
>> disagreement on fundamentals is suspended. Nonetheless, in
>> raising the
>> proposal on this list your are inviting collaboration on
>> formation of
>> the concept of this project, and I have accepted the invitation by
>> criticising your concept of the proposal. You have propsed the
>> writing
>> of an article countering the narrative of Ayn Rand that "the
>> ultra-wealthy are the engines of advancement and prosperity
>> and the
>> saviors of society" and to argue instead that "the gradual
>> shift in
>> political control of the economy over the past 50 years by the
>> ultra-wealthy has reached a kind of tipping point in which the
>> gains in
>> disparity are so dramatic as to overwhelm any sense of actual
>> self-interest." My response is "Well, hello!" This is hardly news,
>> David. This has been argued (correctly) for several centuries. The
>> wealthy have always been a class of parasites; social progress has
>> always been only in the teeth of opposition from all but a few
>> of that
>> class. I would argue that it is better to enter some actual
>> project
>> aimed against capitalism and ineqaulity and participate in the
>> argument
>> about strategy and tactics. Being 68, after 50 years of such
>> participation, I accept a somewhat arm's length participation,
>> but the
>> protagonists (wether real or imagined) are those actually
>> engaged in
>> that struggle in any formm about how best to further that
>> struggle. Not
>> the *generalities*, in my view. But I am pleased that you are
>> taking up
>> the battle and I wish you well. All I can do is offer my
>> reflections on
>> your object-concept, as others have and will.
>>
>> Andy
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>
>>
>>
>> David H Kirshner wrote:
>> >> It would appear ...
>> >> >
>> > Doesn't appear that way to me.
>> > In fact, it's not clear to me, contrary to Andy and Paul,
>> that in a practical endeavor one has to come to terms with
>> foundational issues, at all.
>> > The fact that social psychology may not have the foundations
>> right doesn't imply that it has no insight to offer, or that a
>> make-shift frame of reference can't provide a stable enough
>> foundation to move people forward (collectively and
>> individually). Indeed, isn't that the necessary way forward in
>> any practical endeavor, given the absence of fully worked out
>> foundational perspectives (and given the need to address the
>> world as we find it, without the theorist's option of
>> restricting the domain of inquiry within tractable parameters)?
>> > David
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of Dr.
>> Paul C. Mocombe
>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 6:12 AM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam International
>> >
>> > Andy and david,
>> >
>> > It would appear that any counter - narrative would have to
>> be anti-dialectical and counter-hegemonic, I.e.,
>> anti-individual, anti-capitalist, anti-humanity... Can such a
>> counter - narrative come from a humanity, including us
>> academics, subjectified to reproduce individual wealth, upward
>> mobility, and status at the expense of the masses of poor
>> around the world, paradoxically, seeking our bourgeois
>> lifestyle? >
>> > I ask because, it would appear that the earth,in marxian
>> terms, as a class for itself, has been begging for humanity to
>> change the way it recursively reorganize and reproduce it's
>> being-in-it over the last 100 years, but we consistently
>> refuse. Instead, turning to dialectical measures, fracking,
>> carbon credits, neoliberalism, etc., to attempt to resolve our
>> problems and maintain the protestant ethic and the spirit of
>> capitalism as an "enframing" (heidegger's term) ontology.
>> >
>> > I am not a pessimistic person, but it appears that in this
>> case we are all dead we just do not know it yet.
>> >
>> >
>> > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
>> > President
>> > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
>> > www.mocombeian.com <http://www.mocombeian.com>
>> > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
>> <http://www.readingroomcurriculum.com>
>>
>> >
>> > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From:
>> David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>>
>>
>> </div><div>Date:01/21/2014 2:50 AM (GMT-05:00)
>> </div><div>To: ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>> </div><div>Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam
>> International </div><div>
>> > </div>Andy,
>> > I suppose social psychology's unitary and a-historical
>> ascription of the human sense of material well-being as
>> relative to other people (rather than as relative to one's own
>> past) gets it wrong from the start. Still, I think it provides
>> a way to understand the individual pursuit of wealth, carried
>> to its limits, as anti-social and destructive; an effective
>> counter-narrative to the libertarian ideal of the individual
>> unfettered by societal constraints. We badly need a
>> counter-narrative to regain some kind of political leverage
>> for ordinary citizens.
>> > If anyone would like to help pull that together in the form
>> of a paper, please reply, on-line or off-.
>> > Thanks.
>> > David
>> > dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of Andy
>> Blunden
>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2014 12:13 AM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam International
>> >
>> > I certainly hope so, David, or at least, I hope to read and
>> participate in acting out the opening chapter of that narrative.
>> >
>> > I do think that the "99%/1%" narrative was a project doomed
>> to failure however, as it conceived of itself as a linear
>> expansion which would somehow bypass social and ideological
>> differences. It did not conceive of itselfr as a project at
>> all. Just a mesage about the one true world which everyone had
>> to come to. Truly magical realism. The plot lies implicit in
>> the opening chapter, but it is always far from easy to see how
>> the plot will unfold itself though the multiple story-lines
>> entailed in this conundrum, Andy
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>> > *Andy Blunden*
>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > David H Kirshner wrote:
>> > >> The operative narrative, at least in the U.S. context,
>> dictated by Ayn Rand, is that the ultra-wealthy are the
>> engines of advancement and prosperity and the saviors of
>> society. What is in their best interest is in all of our best
>> interests. We very badly need a counter-narrative.
>> >> Andy, is this practical project something that can be
>> undertaken and completed in real-time as a theoretical project?
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> >> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of Andy
>> Blunden
>> >> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 11:06 PM
>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam International
>> >>
>> >> David I have plenty of experience with desparate measures
>> over teh
>> >> past
>> >> 50 years, and I have come very late to "the broader
>> theoretical project." It is absolutely essential that the
>> practical project and the theoretical project are one and the
>> same.
>> >>
>> >> Andy
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>> >> --
>> >> *Andy Blunden*
>> >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> David H Kirshner wrote:
>> >> >> >>> Andy,
>> >>> Sometimes, in order to create a counter-narrative that can
>> be effective in the here and now, one has to step outside of
>> the broader theoretical project. I guess, for some, this would
>> constitute a distraction from the real work, perhaps a
>> violation of the true mission of that scholarly endeavor. For
>> others, it might be a legitimate (even if imperfect) effort to
>> apply what one has come to understand from the larger project.
>> For others, still, perhaps simply a political activity
>> undertaken with theoretical tools, but with little actual
>> relation to the theoretical project.
>> >>> Perhaps these are desperate measures that these desperate
>> times call for.
>> >>> David
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> >>> [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of Andy
>> Blunden
>> >>> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:29 PM
>> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Working for the Few | Oxfam
>> International
>> >>>
>> >>> Well, that's the project I have been collaborating in
>> since I was a teenager, David, but it has its challenges, too,
>> you know.
>> >>>
>> >>> First off, these observations about social psychology and
>> well-being:
>> >>> The point is to have a unit of analysis and one which is
>> as valid for making observations about psychology as it is for
>> social theory. And in general, this is lacking for what goes
>> by the name of "social psychology." People do not of course
>> govern their behaviour by evidence-based investigations of the
>> likely results of their behaviour.
>> >>> People don't set out to "grow a bigger economy" or "have
>> more wealth than someone else". The thinking of an individual
>> has to be understood (I would contend) within the contexts of
>> the projects to which they are committed. That is the reason
>> for the relativity in the enjoyment of wealth (which is itself
>> of course relative). People make judgments according to the
>> norms of the project in which they are participating, and that
>> means semantic, theoretical and practical norms. Understanding
>> the psychology of political economy is as of one task with
>> that of building a project to overthrow the existing political
>> economic arrangements and build sustainable arrangements. That
>> requires a multitude of projects all willikng and able to
>> collaborate with one another.
>> >>>
>> >>> That's what I think.
>> >>> Andy
>> >>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>> >>> -
>> >>> --
>> >>> *Andy Blunden*
>> >>> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> David H Kirshner wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I've been sketching out in my
>> mind, but not yet had time to research and write, a paper
>> tentatively titled:
>> >>>> The Psychology of Greed: Why the Ultra-wealthy are
>> Despoiling the
>> >>>> Planet, Tanking the Economy, and Gutting our Culture In
>> the Quest
>> >>>> for More
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The premise is that the psychological metric of our sense
>> of material well-being is not accumulation, relative to our
>> own past wealth, but the comparative measure of our own wealth
>> in relation to that of others. (I believe this is a
>> well-established principle of social psychology.) So, for
>> example, instead of trying to grow a bigger economy which
>> requires a large and healthy middle-class (this is what would
>> provide more actual wealth for the ultra-wealthy), they are
>> eroding the middle-class as quickly as they can--a strategy
>> that maximizes disparity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The major thesis (in the U.S. context) is that the
>> gradual shift in political control of the economy over the
>> past 50 years by the ultra-wealthy has reached a kind of
>> tipping point in which the gains in disparity are so dramatic
>> as to overwhelm any sense of actual self-interest. Hence, we
>> see increasingly irrational and self-destructive behavior by
>> the ultra-wealthy (e.g., the fraudulent housing bubble that
>> created what U.S. economists refer to as The Great Recession).
>> The conclusion, of course, is a call to action to take back
>> control of our political systems so we can set more rational
>> policies for the economy.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't know if this thesis extends so easily beyond the
>> U.S. situation to the world, but if this project appeals, I
>> would welcome a collaborative effort--perhaps even one that
>> somehow encompasses the whole XMCA listserv as co-authors.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David
>> >>>> >>>>
>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
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