[Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation?
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Mon Aug 4 03:45:40 PDT 2014
Maria,
I think that when you conceive of the "context" as *activities*, then it
is not something of a different kind or scale than the "narratives" or
"projects" which a person participates in or aspires toward, and which
form their personality. The question which is posed is the relation(s)
*between* activities or projects ... as opposed to inside/outside or
individual/society or action/context relations and so on ... such
characterisations as these latter ones are inevitably abstract and
intractable. So it is not person-environment relations, or person-person
relations, but project-project relations which are critical to the
development of a person's personality and to the development of the
relevant social formation.
Hope that makes sense.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
Maria Cristina Migliore wrote:
> Hi to everybody,
>
>
> Very interesting debate this one on motivation.
>
>
> My PhD dissertation was on ‘motivation’ to workplace learning in the case
> of older workers in the shop floor in the industrial sector, in a western
> ‘developed’ context such the north of Italy.
>
>
> I have chosen to adopt the concept of motives to learning instead of the
> too much cognitivist concept of motivation.
>
>
> The proposal - here in this debate - to integrate this concept by
> specifying that motivation is *justified* and *mediated* does not satisfy
> my need of positioning myself in the CHAT perspective. I have problem to
> accept this part of the definition of motivation: “the person’s long term
> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person”.
>
>
> It seems to me that this conceptualization of motivation focuses on the
> individual, as separated from the context. The context is now *in* the
> individual. We look at the individual and the context is only a backcloth.
>
>
> In my doctoral research I have elaborated on the concept of motives and
> hierarchy of motives from the work of Leontiev in “Activity, Consciousness,
> and Personality”. I think that the Leontiev’s concept of motives is more
> useful when one uses the CHAT perspective and wants to overcome the dualism
> individuals/contexts. This concept offers a way to look at the single
> development of people and activities.
>
>
> This single development can be seen for motive is what is behind an
> activity. My interpretation of Leontiev’s work is that all of us
> internalize motives by participating in collective and material activities,
> which are driven by the objects. Object is “the true motive” of the
> activity. Motives have collective meanings. When motives are internalized
> with their collective meanings, the person personalizes them on the basis
> of her experiences. Every one is a unique constellation of experiences and
> motives, which they continuously organize hierarchically. This is the
> moment of subjectification (subjectivity) of the process of internalization
> (of motives) - highlighted by Stetsenko in her article on MCA in 2005-, a
> moment between internalization and externalization.
>
>
> I discuss these ideas in my thesis uploaded in Academia.edu.
>
>
> Thanks to this approach I was able to conclude my research with some
> indications to policy makers about types of intervention to support the
> single development of people and activities. I tell this here as a comment
> to what Greg has said about the macro level and its transformation: “these
> larger structures are much more intractable to change”. I am wondering
> whether this thought stems from the adoption of a theoretical perspective
> which is still marked by the Cartesian dualism and prevents to see how
> everything is connected.
>
>
> Maria-Cristina Migliore
>
>
> Turin (Italy)
>
>
>
> 2014-08-04 5:54 GMT+02:00 Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>:
>
>
>> ditto. "but" traded for "and"...
>> As to the question about transforming our relations, I'm not so sure that a
>> changed understanding of motivation is going to do all that.
>>
>> What I do think it could do is:
>>
>> 1. Serve as a push-back against the "I built that" mentality of the
>> American bourgeoisie (this was a Republican cry in the last election) in
>> which it is assumed that those who have "made it" have done it because of
>> their "intrinsic motivation" or their ability to "delay gratification". In
>> contrast, poor people are seen as people who want it and they want it now!
>> This was my reference to the famous marshmallow study where a kid is given
>> a marshmallow and told if they can wait, they will get two marshmallows -
>> and this was supposed to predict later success in life! Seems like a
>> troubling road to go down. Seems like this is bourgeois psychology at its
>> best.
>>
>> 2. But perhaps the more useful point is caught up in Luria's notion of the
>> importance of contexts for changing behavior. If we are working with kids
>> and want them to change their behavior then this suggests that we shouldn't
>> sit there and preach to them about how they should try harder in school or
>> "apply themselves" more or have more "intrinsic motivation" or whatever.
>> Rather, it seems like the task is to look to create contexts in which they
>> can realize themselves in ways that look like our much desired "socially
>> justified intrinsic motivation". The point is that motivation has
>> everything to do with the context, and I think that there is a real key
>> here.
>>
>> Everyone has examples of kids who appear in school to be lacking any
>> motivations other than "extrinsic" ones and yet these same students will
>> apply themselves in remarkably "intrinsic" ways in areas other than
>> schooling. As a quick example, I have a colleague, Jonathan Rosa (Umass
>> Amherst) who worked with some Mexican American high school kids in Chicago
>> when he was doing his dissertation research. He became particularly close
>> with one student who wasn't doing particularly well in school but who loved
>> Bolly-wood movies. He loved them so much that he kept notebooks of the
>> translations of the Urdu words that were provided on the screen so that he
>> basically had started making his English-Urdu dictionary.
>>
>> The point here is that we tend to think of individuals as the sole locus of
>> intervention. Much greater attention needs to be paid to the making of
>> contexts.
>>
>> This is already too long of a post, but just to be clear, I'm thinking
>> primarily of contexts in terms of the close-in contexts of learning and
>> living. Larger contexts (e.g., structures of socioeconomic systems and even
>> the larger economic system in which one lives) need changing too, but these
>> larger structures are much more intractable to change. In order to maximize
>> effects of intervention, it seems that this meso-genetic level is the place
>> to work - i.e. to the making of contexts.
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>> -greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry.
>>> mike
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Greg, Mike
>>>> The phrase
>>>>
>>>> *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is
>>>> socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person’s long term
>>>> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if we change BUT to AND
>>>>
>>>> *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is
>>>> socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person’s long term
>>>> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?
>>>>
>>>> speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted
>>>> story of *character* formation through *bildung*?
>>>>
>>>> Greg’s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is
>>>> contingent on local culture and history.
>>>>
>>>> Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal
>>>>
>>> perspectives.
>>>
>>>> If we become more explicitly conscious that our horizons are
>>>> socio-culturally generated then hopefully this awareness will be
>>>> transformative. The question I ask is
>>>>
>>>> *If we are successful in making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal
>>>> nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening
>>>>
>> awareness
>>
>>>> transform our socio-cultural relations with each other?
>>>>
>>>> Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal
>>>> interpretive formations.
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Windows Mail
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Gregory Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 3, 2014 6:49 PM
>>>> *To:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>, eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>>>> *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and
>>>>
>>> generally
>>>
>>>> acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on
>>>> local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic
>>>> aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others.
>>>>
>>>> And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my
>>>>
>>> concern
>>>
>>>> was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I
>>>> myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that
>>>>
>>> cultivate
>>>
>>>> "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain
>>>> accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures
>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> have such a powerful effect.
>>>>
>>>> Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in
>>>>
>> work
>>
>>>> that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly
>>>> trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the
>>>> cognitive and affective variety that you mention?
>>>>
>>>> (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these
>>>> endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and
>>>> generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and
>>>>
>> self-centeredness
>>
>>>> (socially "bad" traits!) here too?).
>>>>
>>>> Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated
>>>>
>> (in
>>
>>>> the proper, socially justified manner...).
>>>>
>>>> -greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of
>>>>> motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the
>>>>> individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically
>>>>> motivated person?
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery <
>>>>>
>> cconnery@ithaca.edu
>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Greg:
>>>>>> I think you are onto something here, in light of the fact that
>>>>>>
>> many
>>
>>>>>> dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the
>>>>>> sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society.
>>>>>>
>>> While
>>>
>>>>>> John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition
>>>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>>>> motivation in this case, is also possible that the
>>>>>> scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a
>>>>>> completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment
>>>>>>
>> when
>>
>>>>>> accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or
>>>>>>
>>> witnessing
>>>
>>>>> such
>>>>>
>>>>>> big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment,
>>>>>>
>>> in
>>>
>>>>>> these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that
>>>>>>
>> knows
>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>> inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or
>>>>>>
>> world-class
>>
>>>>>> athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of
>>>>>>
>>>>> catharsis
>>>>>
>>>>>> that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as
>>>>>> aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for
>>>>>>
>>>>> summer
>>>>>
>>>>>> school, so it is time to get back to work.
>>>>>> Cathrene
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Cathrene Connery
>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
>>>>>> Ithaca College
>>>>>> Department of Education
>>>>>> 194B Phillips Hall Annex
>>>>>> 953 Danby Road
>>>>>> Ithaca, New York 14850
>>>>>> Cconnery@ithaca.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" <
>>>>>>
>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Loving
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization
>>>>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>>>>> Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal
>>>>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>>> light
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a
>>>>>>>
>>> Chinese
>>>
>>>>>>> scholar who had previously received the medal:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "“Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other
>>>>>>> recognition is needed” (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner
>>>>>>>
>>>> interpret
>>>>
>>>>> as
>>>>>
>>>>>>> “a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation” (p.
>>>>>>>
>> 73)."
>>
>>>>>>> Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "intrinsic
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by
>>>>>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>> fact
>>>>>
>>>>>>> that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken
>>>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>>>> "intrinsic".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological
>>>>>>>
>> terme
>>
>>>>> d'arte
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes
>>>>>>>
>>> d'art
>>>
>>>>> are
>>>>>
>>>>>>> part of everyday language about things like parenting and
>>>>>>>
>>> teaching!),
>>>
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>>>> seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to
>>>>>>>
>>> intrinsic
>>>
>>>>>>> motivation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this
>>>>>>>
>>>> case
>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>>> EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others
>>>>>>>
>> (or
>>
>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might
>>>>>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>>>>> imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of
>>>>>>>
>> any
>>
>>>>>>> community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation
>>>>>>>
>>> "outside"
>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the individual?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and
>>>>>>>
>>>>> awards
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even
>>>>>>>
>> marshmallows!)
>>
>>>>> could
>>>>>
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be
>>>>>>>
>>>> INSIDE
>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> person in order for the person to be motivated by them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>> mentioned
>>>>
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than
>>>>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>>> shadow
>>>>>
>>>>>>> can carry stones?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> prevalent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> among psychologists?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and
>>>>>>>
>>>> extrinsic
>>>>
>>>>>>> motivation:
>>>>>>> "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by
>>>>>>>
>> internal
>>
>>>>>>> rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior
>>>>>>>
>>>> arises
>>>>
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> contrasts
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior
>>>>>>>
>> in
>>
>>>>> order
>>>>>
>>>>>>> to earn external rewards or avoid punishments."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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