[Xmca-l] Re: Intrinsic motivation?

[mike cole]

Sure, I'll trade my but for your and, Larry.
mike


On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 7:03 PM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Greg, Mike
> The phrase
>
>  *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is
> socio-culturally mediated BUT attributed to the person’s long term
> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?
>
> I was wondering if we  change BUT to AND
>
> *justified* intrinsic motivation, a form of motivation that is
> socio-culturally mediated AND attributed to the person’s long term
> characterological story of an intrinsically motivated person?
>
> speaks to a particular *horizonal perspective* of a taken for granted
> story of *character* formation through *bildung*?
>
>  Greg’s *generally acceptable* motivations the nature of which is
> contingent on local culture and history.
>
> Greg brings in the value question of *more better* horizonal perspectives.
> If we become  more explicitly conscious that our horizons are
> socio-culturally generated then hopefully  this awareness will be
> transformative.  The question I ask is
>
> *If we are successful in  making explicit the socio-cultural horizonal
> nature of our understanding of being human, will this awakening awareness
> transform our socio-cultural relations with each other?
>
> Our *justifications* may always emerge within particular horizonal
> interpretive formations.
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
>
> *From:* Gregory Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* ‎Sunday‎, ‎August‎ ‎3‎, ‎2014 ‎6‎:‎49‎ ‎PM
> *To:* Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>, eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Cc:* xmca-l@ucsd.edu
>
> Yes, Mike, I was thinking something like "socially justified and generally
> acceptable" motivations, the nature of which is very much contingent on
> local culture and history. Seems like all of it has extrinsic/intrinsic
> aspects to it but some are just considered "more better" than others.
>
> And yes Cathrene, I agree. I think you caught that the object of my concern
> was not John-Steiner and Hersh - they were just using a concept that I
> myself frequently use. Your characterization of subcultures that cultivate
> "inherent" (scare quotes are required, I think) worth of certain
> accomplishments is right on. But it must be more than just subcultures to
> have such a powerful effect.
>
> Very importantly, I wonder, without fetishizing people who engage in work
> that is highly intrinsically rewarding, how are, for example, highly
> trained athletes socialized into the catharsis (take note Andy!) of the
> cognitive and affective variety that you mention?
>
> (and returning to Mike's question we might even wonder if some of these
> endeavors, e.g. the Olympic athlete, are really socially justified and
> generally acceptable? Isn't there a certain vanity and self-centeredness
> (socially "bad" traits!) here too?).
>
> Happy grading Cathrene! Hope you are feeling intrinsically motivated (in
> the proper, socially justified manner...).
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 12:27 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you could call it "justified" intrinsic motivation, a form of
> > motivation that is socio-culturally mediated but attributed to the
> > individual's long term characterological story of an intrinsically
> > motivated person?
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Cathrene Connery <cconnery@ithaca.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Greg:
> > > I think you are onto something here, in light  of the fact that many
> > > dichotomies are false, especially when contextualized within the
> > > sociocultural, historical-political complexity of human society. While
> > > John-Steiner and Hersh were specifically talking about recognition and
> > > motivation in this case, is also possible that the
> > > scientist/artist/athelete or other thinkers-performers experience a
> > > completely different and discipline-specific form of fulfillment when
> > > accomplishing that which has not be achieved before and /or witnessing
> > such
> > > big "C" (vs. little "c" creative events). The sense of fulfillment, in
> > > these instances, is derived from a specialized subculture that knows
> the
> > > inherent worth of the accomplishment (such as Olympic or world-class
> > > athletes). I suspect that these individuals experience a type of
> > catharsis
> > > that involves both cognitive and affective aspects as well as
> > > aesthetic-functional dimensions. But, I have 60 papers to grade for
> > summer
> > > school, so it is time to get back to work.
> > > Cathrene
> > >
> > > Dr. Cathrene Connery
> > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > Ithaca College
> > > Department of Education
> > > 194B Phillips Hall Annex
> > > 953 Danby Road
> > > Ithaca, New York 14850
> > > Cconnery@ithaca.edu
> > >
> > > On Aug 3, 2014, at 12:25 PM, "Greg Thompson" <
> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > While reading David Kirshner's review of Hersh and John-Steiner's
> > Loving
> > > > and Hating Math book, I cam across the following characterization of
> > > > Gregory Perelman's decision to refuse to accept the Fields Medal in
> > light
> > > > of the apparent fact that his work had been plagiarized by a Chinese
> > > > scholar who had previously received the medal:
> > > >
> > > > "“Everybody understood that if the proof is correct then no other
> > > > recognition is needed” (p. 72), which Hersh and John-Steiner
> interpret
> > as
> > > > “a beautiful example of intrinsic scientific motivation” (p. 73)."
> > > >
> > > > Although this makes perfect sense to me and my understanding of
> > > "intrinsic
> > > > motivation" from an intuitive sense, I was nonetheless struck by the
> > fact
> > > > that in this case, it was an EXTERNAL recognition that is taken to be
> > > > "intrinsic".
> > > >
> > > > On the one hand, in my intuitive sense of this psychological terme
> > d'arte
> > > > (as well as my emic everyday sense of it - psychological termes d'art
> > are
> > > > part of everyday language about things like parenting and teaching!),
> > it
> > > > seems that the Hersh and John-Steiner quote IS pointing to intrinsic
> > > > motivation.
> > > >
> > > > But, on the other hand, it also seems that the motivation in this
> case
> > is
> > > > EXTRINSIC - the mathematician is seeking recognition of others (or
> > > perhaps
> > > > even recognition by the "field of mathematics" - which some might to
> > > > imagine to be a truth-conditional field that exists outside of any
> > > > community of mathematicians). Isn't this type of motivation "outside"
> > of
> > > > the individual?
> > > >
> > > > Conversely, isn't it also the case that the desire for medals and
> > awards
> > > > (e.g. the Fields Medal) or even other rewards (even marshmallows!)
> > could
> > > be
> > > > thought of as INTRINSIC as well? Don't these desires have to be
> INSIDE
> > > the
> > > > person in order for the person to be motivated by them?
> > > >
> > > > Seems like all motivation is both extrinsic and intrinsic, no?
> > > >
> > > > And I wonder if this may be connected to the quote that Mike
> mentioned
> > > from
> > > > Luria that a person cannot control their behaviors any more than a
> > shadow
> > > > can carry stones?
> > > >
> > > > Both seem to point to an ideology (myth) of individualism that is
> > > prevalent
> > > > among psychologists?
> > > >
> > > > For those interested, here is a description of intrinsic and
> extrinsic
> > > > motivation:
> > > > "Intrinsic motivation refers to behavior that is driven by internal
> > > > rewards. In other words, the motivation to engage in a behavior
> arises
> > > from
> > > > within the individual because it is intrinsically rewarding. This
> > > contrasts
> > > > with extrinsic motivation, which involves engaging in a behavior in
> > order
> > > > to earn external rewards or avoid punishments."
> > > >
> > > > -greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>