[Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism

Wed Apr 2 07:41:35 PDT 2014

Greg, Michael,
the question:
Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated?
Or are you saying something else?
Is a fascinating question.
Also the relation of *mediated* and *immediated* experiences and their
relation to "vitality"

In reflecting on "experiences" a further question is whether *immediate*
or *mediated* experiences a question of "degrees?

Michael, I have quiclkly looked at Bazerman's book and his exploration of
literacy. Would Dewey implicate "genres" within IMMEDIATE experience? [as
well as mediated experiences]

What TYPE or KIND of relationship [or relationshipS] exist between
immediate and mediated experience WITHIN "flow".

Greg, your question is answered by Shotter in a particular way as the
"flow" within the prosthetic-tool-text relationship as flowing btween
mediated and immediate experiencing AS MULTIPLE relationships.

Mead's exploration of taking the perspective of the other [specific and
generalized other] also is exploring this relationship through the concept
of "perspectives"
Are perspectives immediate or mediated?

On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 7:19 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote:

> Actually it was Michael Roth who seemed to be suggesting immediate
> experience is similar to flow (at least I think so).  I think I am saying
> is that flow seems to be similar to Dewey's ideas of what vital immediate
> experience can and does look like.  The difference is I think Dewey thinks
> it is much more common, much more integrated into learning, and can be
> taught - or at least should be the aim of educative processes.
>
> Michael
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
> on behalf of Greg Thompson [greg.a.thompson@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 10:16 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
>
> Michael,
> Are you suggesting that "immediate" experience and/or "flow" is unmediated?
> Or are you saying something else?
> -greg
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu
> >wrote:
>
> > Just an issue of theoretical serendipity I thought I might share.
> >  Yesterday I spent two hours with my class discussing Dewey's concept of
> > immediate experience and mediate experience - which he also sometimes
> > refers to as primary experience and secondary experience.
> >
> > Then this morning I read across this sentence in the Michael Roth article
> > that Mike sent relating to the discussion of mediation
> >
> > The adjective immediate is the antonym of mediate, mediated. It is used
> in
> > the
> > sense that there is 'no intermediary or intervening member, medium, or
> > agent'
> > (Simpson, 2005a).
> >
> > What is interesting here is that I'm guessing at least some cultural
> > historical theorists do see mediate and immediate as opposites (I'd be
> > interested to hear more on this) but what we came to in our discussions
> > yesterday (if you can even come to anything when discussing Dewey) is
> that
> > he saw the two as something of a continuum.  The immediate experience is
> > what you experienced at the moment and as a result of that experience you
> > make connections back to mediated experience (prior experience that is
> > given to us through symbols) expanding its meaning and pushing us
> forward.
> >  Immediate experience without the connections back to mediate experience
> is
> > the experience of brutes.  But mediate experience divorced from immediate
> > experience is hollow and empty.  We need to maintain that connection back
> > and forth but always starting with immediate experience.
> >
> > Roth also compares immediate experience to flow (no, I am not going to
> try
> > and spell the guy's name) and I think Dewey agrees with this, but he sees
> > what we now refer to as flow (and Dewey refers to as seeing the value of
> > the end in the sequence of the means) as much, much more common to our
> > activities.  It is any time we are really engaged in the activity for the
> > sake of the activity, and it can be anything.  As a matter of fact that
> is
> > what much of education should be about - teaching us to approach
> activities
> > as immediate experience that is then informed by mediated experience.
> >
> > Just an interesting connection between immediate experience and mediate
> > experience coming out of this conversation.
> >
> > Michael
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu]
> > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:12 PM
> > To: Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> >
> > Is the blind man's stick mediating his actions in the world, even when he
> > is meeting no obstacles so that he "see right through it"? When culture
> is
> > sufficiently appropriated/internalized so that we "see right through it"
> do
> > we say that culture no longer mediates our experience of the world?
> >
> > Here is what Michael Roth wrote about the issue, a while back. His view.
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> > pmocombe@mocombeian.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Michael,
> > >
> > > Your example bears witness to the three stances, ready-to-hand,
> > > unready-to-hand, and present-at-hand, of Dasein highlighted by
> heidegger
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > President
> > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > >
> > >
> > > -------- Original message --------
> > > From: "Glassman, Michael"
> > > Date:04/01/2014 12:31 PM (GMT-05:00)
> > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com,"eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > >
> > > I wonder about the issue of tools.  If something is use unconsciously,
> > > without overt awareness of its implications, is it really a tool.  I
> > think
> > > of labels as being used certainly in the development of small groups as
> > > overt tools of power and control, but also in larger societies in ways
> > that
> > > individuals are not even aware of.  It is sort of like, when riding a
> > > bicycle we understand the tires as tools driving us forward.  But what
> > > about the grooves in the back path that we naturally fall into, that
> take
> > > us in a particular direction without us even realizing that this is
> > > happening to us.  Can we say we are manipulated by those grooves?  Are
> > they
> > > really tools?  We don't even realize the grooves are there until
> someone
> > > yells out "where are you going" and we realize the grooves have been
> > > controlling our behavioral trajectory.
> > >
> > > I don't know.  I feel like this bears some relationship to Sylvia
> > > Scribners' three epochs of human history (am I remembering this right?)
> > or
> > > perhaps Paul's ideas on sub-atomic particles which is fascinating but I
> > am
> > > having a hard time processing.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> ]
> > > on behalf of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:27 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > >
> > > Michael/Paul--- Wouldn't Vygotsky say, invoking the notion of dual
> > > stimulation, that if you mediate your action through a label (a
> cultural
> > > artifact par excellance) you not only act differently toward the other
> > but
> > > are yourself changed (in fact, more or less literally, your position
> with
> > > respect to the other is changed) as you subordinate yourself to this
> > "tool"
> > > and control yourself "from the outside" ??
> > >
> > > Greg has been writing about positioning and labelling.
> > >
> > > Vis a vis symbolic interactionism.  Kenneth Burke seems to me a
> > productive
> > > person to think with. See below.
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 7:24 AM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi michael...yes I have checked into labeling theory...it is in doing
> > so
> > > > that I cam across the similarities between vygotsky and mead
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > > President
> > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > > >
> > > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: "Glassman,
> > > > Michael" <glassman.13@osu.edu> </div><div>Date:04/01/2014  9:08 AM
> > > >  (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> > > > xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's
> > > > theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
> > > > </div>Paul,
> > > >
> > > > I think your view of symbolic interactionism (as related to Mead) as
> > > being
> > > > a tool of power and domination is more reflective of Mead's theory
> than
> > > you
> > > > might think.  Have you looked at labeling theory?  Also a trajectory
> > > taken
> > > > by Mead's students which seems pretty close to what you want to day.
> >  I'm
> > > > not sure what role Vygotsky would play in this.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > ]
> > > > on behalf of Dr. Paul C. Mocombe [pmocombe@mocombeian.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:58 AM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; Mike Cole
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism
> > > >
> > > > At the heart of vygotsky's and mead's work is hegels master/slave
> > > > dialectic as they apply it to the constitution of identity, I.e.
> > > > Consciousness...As though there is no consciousness/identity prior to
> > > > socialization via language and symbolic interaction.  This is similar
> > to
> > > > the identitarian logic of frankfurt school logician theodor adorno.
>  I
> > > have
> > > > a problem with that as I view language and symbolic interaction as
> > always
> > > > an element of power and domination.  In essence my research question
> > is,
> > > > "is there a sui generis consciousness that exist prior to
> > > > socialization/domination by symbols and language.  Haitian
> metaphysics
> > > says
> > > > yes...it exists at the subatomic particle level and is just as real
> as
> > > the
> > > > i and me of language and symbolic interaction.  Zora Neale hurston in
> > her
> > > > ethnographic field work in haiti was attempting to theorize about
> this
> > in
> > > > her literature...it is the essence of who we are.  I may have to go
> > into
> > > > the realm of physics to make sense of this metaphysical logic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > > President
> > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > > >
> > > > <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Greg
> Thompson <
> > > > greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> </div><div>Date:03/31/2014  11:53 PM
> > > > (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>,"eXtended
> > > Mind,
> > > > Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> </div><div>Subject:
> > > [Xmca-l]
> > > > Re: vygotsky's theory and symbolic interactionism </div><div>
> > > > </div>Paul,
> > > > And another piece you might be interested in:
> > > > Winter, J. A. and Goldfield, E. C. (1991), Caregiver-Child
> Interaction
> > in
> > > > the Development of Self: The Contributions of Vygotsky, Bruner, and
> > Kaye
> > > to
> > > > Mead's Theory. Symbolic Interaction, 14: 433-447.
> > > > doi: 10.1525/si.1991.14.4.433
> > > >
> > > > I suspect a Hegelian/Marxian root is shared between Vygotsky and
> Mead.
> > > Mead
> > > > said at one point that his social psychology was an attempt to do
> what
> > > > Hegel did, with the hopes that it would be "less incorrigible." I
> have
> > > the
> > > > exact quote somewhere if you're interested.
> > > >
> > > > The Vygotsky-Hegel connections have been much debated here on XMCA,
> but
> > > it
> > > > seems that there is good reason to think that Vygotsky would have
> been
> > > > influenced by Hegel, whether directly or indirectly (quick duck - I
> > think
> > > > they'll be some words flying soon in defense of one side or the other
> > of
> > > > this argument...).
> > > >
> > > > I'm interested in this intersection as well, more in terms of links
> and
> > > > complementarities with Goffman and Vygotsky, but I'm happy to chat
> > about
> > > > the Mead/Vygotsky link.
> > > >
> > > > -greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:53 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Anne Edwards has an article on this topic in *The Cambridge
> Companion
> > > to
> > > > > Vygotsky".
> > > > >
> > > > > I have inquired of Anne, and would of anyone interested, to
> > understand
> > > > > where the concept of culture appears in the Meadian framework.
> > > > >
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Paul C. Mocombe <
> > > > > pmocombe@mocombeian.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am working on a paper comparing and contrasting george herbert
> > > mead's
> > > > > > symbolic interactionism with
> > > > > > vygotsky's theory....any suggestions anyone?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Paul C. Mocombe
> > > > > > President
> > > > > > The Mocombeian Foundation, Inc.
> > > > > > www.mocombeian.com
> > > > > > www.readingroomcurriculum.com
> > > > > > www.paulcmocombe.info
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Race and Class Distinctions within Black Communities
> > > > > > www.routledge.com/9780415714372
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
>
>
>