[Xmca-l] Re: (no subject)

[Adam Mekrut]

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On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Adam Lefstein <alefstein@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Ana, Mike and everyone,
> I can't help with the original Russian, but I have found one use of
> "ventriloquate" in the English translation of Discourse and the Novel (p.
> 299 of The Dialogic Imagination collection):
>
> Thus a prose writer can distance himself from the language of his own work,
> while at the same time distancing himself, in varying degrees, from the
> different layers and aspects of the work. He can make use of language
> without wholly giving himself up to it, he may treat it as semi-alien or
> completely alien to himself, while compelling language ultimately to serve
> all his own intentions. The author does not speak in a given language (from
> which he distances himself to a greater or lesser degree), but he speaks,
> as it were, through language, a language that has somehow more or less
> materialized, become objectivized, that he merely ventriloquates.
>
> Hope this helps,
> adam
>
>
> On 13 October 2013 00:45, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you are correct, Ana. Perhaps a bunch of foreigners introduced
> the
> > notion of ventriloquation into Bakhtin and then read
> > it back out again.
> >
> > What I think we need is some help from Russians who can search the
> original
> > sources for the original term and its contexts of use. Without that, we
> are
> > flailing in the dark and might fall down a black hole!
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > <anamshane@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Mike,
> > >
> > > I believe that Bakhtin did not use the concept of ventriloquism (but
> > > someone could correct me if I am wrong) but that it was ascribed to him
> > by
> > > others. In fact in the Poetics of Dostoyevsky, Bakhtin explicitly
> states
> > > that that the author does not infuse a hero with his voice!!! (which
> > could
> > > be interpreted as ventriloquism), on the contrary:
> > >
> > > "Self-consciousness, as the artistic dominant in the construction of
> the
> > > hero's image, is by itself sufficient to break down the monologic unity
> > > of an artistic world—but only on condition that the hero, as
> > self-consciousness,
> > > is really represented and not merely expressed, that is, does not fuse
> > > with the author, does not become the mouthpiece for his voice; only on
> > > condition, consequently, that accents of the hero's self-consciousness
> > > are really objectified and that the work itself observes a distance
> > > between the hero and the author. If the umbilical cord uniting the hero
> > > to his creator is not cut, then what we have is not a work of art but a
> > > personal document." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p. 57)
> > >
> > > Also -- when Bakhtin talks about double-voicedness  -- where the voice
> of
> > > another penetrates one's own voice  (which maybe had given an idea to
> > > some interpreters that it is like another voice speaking through as if
> > one
> > > was a dummy), this is not in the sense of being possessed by a daemon,
> > > which is Plato's/Socrate's understanding - but in the sense of two
> voices
> > > living in an inner dialogue.
> > >
> > > "And in the words of the story not only the pure *intonations of **the
> > > author *would be heard, but also the intonations of the noblewoman and
> > > the coachman; that is, words would be double-voiced, in each word an
> > > argument (a microdialogue) would ring out, and there could be heard
> > > echoes of the great dialogue." (Bakhtin, Poetics of Dostoyevsky, p.
> 73).
> > >
> > > My comment was more about the difference in the understanding of a
> > > dialogue between Socrates/Plato and Bakhtin. My knowledge is certainly
> > > limited, but this is my understanding of this difference.
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Ana
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 12, 2013, at 3:28 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted
> > > his dialogic principles?
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > anamshane@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Mike and all,
> > >>
> > >> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek
> > >> meaning  "to talk in the belly"
> > >>
> > >> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive
> > >> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution).
> > >>
> > >> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly,"
> > >> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling
> > sort
> > >> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or
> (more
> > >> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so
> called
> > >> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that
> this
> > >> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice."
> From
> > >> the online etymological dictionary.
> > >>
> > >> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from
> > >> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ⎌and/or
> replying
> > to
> > >> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in
> > the
> > >> belly".
> > >>
> > >> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and
> > >> Socrates ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's.
> > >>
> > >> What do you think?
> > >>
> > >> Ana
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Neat, Doug.
> > >> >
> > >> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really
> > >> interesting
> > >> >and the dialogue a lot of fun.
> > >> >
> > >> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term
> > >> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation.
> > >> >
> > >> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I
> have
> > >> this
> > >> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a
> one
> > >> God.
> > >> >But I could well be mistaken.
> > >> >mike
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams <djwdoc@yahoo.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Hi--
> > >> >>
> > >> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to
> > >> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric
> > >> Havelock's
> > >> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of
> > thought
> > >> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of
> > >> people
> > >> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary
> > >> worlds. I
> > >> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even
> > >> though
> > >> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the
> > >> audience:
> > >> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the
> audience
> > >> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate
> > >> horror of
> > >> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter
> > >> clubs
> > >> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of
> > view,
> > >> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call
> > >> genres
> > >> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools
> available
> > >> in
> > >> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means
> > to
> > >> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and
> all
> > >> the
> > >> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and
> activity
> > >> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where
> > >> thought
> > >> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were
> to
> > >> emerge
> > >> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the
> > world
> > >> as
> > >> >> it has turned these many years:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which
> > can
> > >> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But
> suppose
> > >> you
> > >> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to
> > think
> > >> more
> > >> >> creatively?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it
> > >> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts
> of
> > >> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and
> > >> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once
> entered,
> > >> few
> > >> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good
> fortune
> > >> that
> > >> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by
> > the
> > >> >> poets.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing
> to
> > >> do
> > >> >> with stories of long ago?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of
> > the
> > >> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking
> for
> > >> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be
> > >> derived by
> > >> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to
> > imaginary
> > >> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative."
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a
> > >> sense
> > >> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a
> > spider's
> > >> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the
> real
> > >> world.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a
> > >> spider's
> > >> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable
> of
> > >> >> weaving such webs?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know
> of
> > >> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such
> > >> things?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe
> the
> > >> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought.
> But
> > >> there
> > >> >> is no narrative there.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But
> suppose
> > I
> > >> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative
> context?
> > >> Would
> > >> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates.
> > >> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North,
> which
> > >> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the
> > >> latest
> > >> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most
> > >> disreputably,
> > >> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should
> > describe
> > >> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds
> > of
> > >> the
> > >> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of
> > >> >> Internet, if I understand rightly.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. Surely not!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of
> > craft
> > >> to
> > >> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very
> > >> strange
> > >> >> term.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about
> > >> "web"
> > >> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does
> it
> > >> mean?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern
> > >> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These
> > >> children
> > >> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a
> > forest,
> > >> so
> > >> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the
> path
> > >> of
> > >> >> crumbs they had left behind them.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is
> > used
> > >> to
> > >> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which
> one
> > >> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in
> the
> > >> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its
> particular
> > >> >> meaning?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much
> > >> mistaken,
> > >> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the
> > >> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What
> do
> > >> you
> > >> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a
> > signifier
> > >> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this
> narrative
> > >> of the
> > >> >> barbarians.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is
> it a
> > >> case
> > >> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and
> unable
> > to
> > >> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story
> > about
> > >> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is
> this
> > >> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who
> filled
> > >> their
> > >> >> minds with lies and delusions?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative
> > >> form of
> > >> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able
> to
> > >> free
> > >> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word
> > >> "breadcrumb" is
> > >> >> drawn.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know
> > such
> > >> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he
> had
> > >> one
> > >> >> kind of adze?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to
> > >> think
> > >> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not
> > always a
> > >> >> danger to society?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede
> that
> > >> in
> > >> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of
> > the
> > >> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in
> my
> > >> ears,
> > >> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that
> > poetry
> > >> is,
> > >> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I
> know
> > >> that
> > >> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives
> will
> > >> be in
> > >> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Regards,
> > >> >> Doug
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA <
> > >> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in
> > >> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with
> Andrew
> > >> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of
> play/seriousness.
> > I
> > >> want
> > >> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed
> > and
> > >> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit
> review)
> > >> as an
> > >> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this
> conversation
> > >> to
> > >> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato,
> Kierkegaard
> > >> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky
> > and
> > >> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to
> > >> higher
> > >> >> ed.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would
> be
> > >> >> greatly appreciated!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -Caitlin
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Adam Lefstein
>



-- 
*ADAM PHILIP **MEKRUT   *

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