[Xmca-l] Re: (no subject)

[mike cole]

Ana-- Why would Bakhtin use the term ventriloquation if it contradicted his
dialogic principles?
mike


On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane
<anamshane@gmail.com>wrote:

> Dear Mike and all,
>
> The term "ventriloquation" is of Latin origin, translated from Greek
> meaning  "to talk in the belly"
>
> " 1580s, from Late Latin ventriloquus, from Latin venter (genitive
> ventris) "belly" (see ventral) + loqui "speak" (see locution).
>
> Patterned on Greek engastrimythos, literally "speaking in the belly,"
> which was not originally an entertainer's trick but rather a rumbling sort
> of internal speech, regarded as a sign of spiritual inspiration or (more
> usually) demonic possession. Reference to the modern activity so called
> seems to have begun early 18c., and by 1797 it was being noted that this
> was a curiously inappropriate word to describe throwing the voice." From
> the online etymological dictionary.
>
> I think that for Bakhtin, dialogue would be quite the opposite from
> ventriloquism.. Dialogue is about addressing the other ⎌and/or replying to
> the other, rather than "throwing a voice into a dummy" or "talking in the
> belly".
>
> Although I am not a Russian contributor, I think that Plato's and Socrates
> ideas about dialogue were very different than Bakhtin's.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Ana
>
>
> mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Neat, Doug.
> >
> >The idea that ventriloquation is where thought begins is really
> interesting
> >and the dialogue a lot of fun.
> >
> >I am almost positive that an examination of the etymology of the term
> >ventriloquation in Bakhtin would repay investigation.
> >
> >Perhaps one of the Russian contributors could help us out here. I have
> this
> >hunch that the gods are somehow involved, or maybe there is just a one
> God.
> >But I could well be mistaken.
> >mike
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Douglas Williams <djwdoc@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi--
> >>
> >> One thing I think you'll have to deal with is Plato's hostility to
> >> narrative, which for him was cast in the form of poetry. Eric Havelock's
> >> Preface to Plato would be a good place to start.
> >>
> >>
> >> I have to admit that I think accessing this particular line of thought
> >> through Plato is difficult, because he is so deeply suspicious of people
> >> becoming possessed, literally, by the attractiveness of imaginary
> worlds. I
> >> think he views imaginary narrative as suspect always, because even
> though
> >> it may be play for the narrator, narratives are dangerous for the
> audience:
> >> By subjecting themselves to the imagination of another, the audience
> >> becomes trapped in a world of shadows of shadows, until, ultimate
> horror of
> >> horrors, otherwise proto-sentient beings sit around in Harry Potter
> clubs
> >> ventriloquizing J.K. Rowling.
> >>
> >>
> >> On the other hand, from a cultural-historical psychology point of view,
> >> access to reality begins with internalizing what Bakhtin might call
> genres
> >> of sociocultural activity--the moral and intellectual tools available in
> >> the external world that arm the proto-sentient being with the means to
> >> comprehend society, culture, genres of thought and activity, and all the
> >> other things that internalizing the patterns of language and activity
> >> around us make available to our own use. Ventriloquizing is where
> thought
> >> begins. As Socrates might say, in dialogue with Plato, if he were to
> emerge
> >> out of the shadows of a cave somewhere for a time, to ponder the world
> as
> >> it has turned these many years:
> >>
> >> Soc. I have often heard you warn about the dangers of poetry, which can
> >> trap the minds of those who become bewitched by the muse. But suppose
> you
> >> have studiously avoided narrative, does it truly free someone to think
> more
> >> creatively?
> >>
> >>
> >> Plato. Well, surely this is self-evident, is it not? For when is it
> >> possible to think for oneself about the world in the dead thoughts of
> >> another, such as we often see in those who become lost in plays and
> >> stories? These narratives are like a labyrinth, which, once entered, few
> >> have the power to leave. It is surely a matter of great good fortune
> that
> >> this modern age has so many who are free from the evils created by the
> >> poets.
> >>
> >>
> >> Soc. Would you agree that this new Internet technology has nothing to do
> >> with stories of long ago?
> >>
> >> Plato. Yes, of course it does not. That is a very clear example of the
> >> foolishness of wasting time reading stories, rather than thinking for
> >> oneself. This wondrous techne clearly shows the advantage to be derived
> by
> >> devoting one's thought to the world as it is, rather than to imaginary
> >> worlds created by poets and writers, which are always derivative."
> >>
> >>
> >> Soc. Yet there are several features of this Internet that reflect a
> sense
> >> of stories. What do you suppose "World Wide Web" means?
> >>
> >> Plato. Why, I should think that it refers to the strands of a spider's
> >> web. But that is not a story; that is simple observation of the real
> world.
> >>
> >>
> >> Soc. Do you suppose that these strands of metal function like a spider's
> >> web, then? Do they trap those who wander into them?
> >>
> >> Plato. But Socrates, of course I do not.
> >>
> >> Soc. Or do you suppose that only daughters of Arachne are capable of
> >> weaving such webs?
> >>
> >>
> >> Plato: No--though surely you do not mean to say that one must know of
> >> Arachne, or indeed of spiders and webs, to be able to create such
> things?
> >>
> >>
> >> Soc. No. But consider the matter this way: How would you describe the
> >> relation of a word like "web" to the design?
> >>
> >>
> >> Plato: I think I might describe it as a kind of tool of thought. But
> there
> >> is no narrative there.
> >>
> >> Soc. Very good. We are agreed that words are tools then. But suppose I
> >> find another word that makes no sense outside of a narrative context?
> Would
> >> you agree that narratives might be tools, too?
> >>
> >> Plato: Surely there can be no such word, Socrates.
> >> Soc. There is a story told by certain barbarians of the North, which
> >> certain poets wrote down, much as Homer did, to communicate to the
> latest
> >> posterity the thoughts and deeds of ancestors--though most disreputably,
> >> they selected not history, but arrant lies.
> >>
> >> Plato: Indeed, that is very reprehensible, Socrates. I should describe
> >> such people as wolves in human form, who prey not just on the minds of
> the
> >> living, but of the future. Most terrible!
> >>
> >> Soc. And yet one of their stories has a meaning in this techne of
> >> Internet, if I understand rightly.
> >>
> >> Plato. Surely not!
> >>
> >> Soc. They say that a certain term describing one of the tools of craft
> to
> >> navigate on this web is called a "breadcrumb." I find this a very
> strange
> >> term.
> >>
> >> Plato: So do I, Socrates. It shows that there is no narrative about
> "web"
> >> that traps these wise craftsmen of this modern era. But what does it
> mean?
> >>
> >> Soc. I am told that this term refers to a story of these northern
> >> barbarians, called "Hansel and Gretel," about two children. These
> children
> >> scattered crumbs from a loaf of bread as they walked through a forest,
> so
> >> that they could find their way home again by returning along the path of
> >> crumbs they had left behind them.
> >>
> >> Plato. I see. So you are telling me that the word "breadcrumb" is used
> to
> >> describe a way of returning on a web site to the place from which one
> >> started, and moreover, that it is the very meaning of the word in the
> >> context of this story that gives the word "breadcrumb" its particular
> >> meaning?
> >>
> >> Soc. So I am given to understand. In fact, unless I am very much
> mistaken,
> >> it appears that the knowledge of this story was specifically the
> >> inspiration for crafting this particular kind of technology. What do you
> >> think "breadcrumb" means in the context of this usage?
> >>
> >> Plato: Why, I must concede, Socrates, that it appears to be a signifier
> >> representing a pattern of thought that is embodied in this narrative of
> the
> >> barbarians.
> >>
> >> Soc. Do you think that this is a form of creative thought? Or is it a
> case
> >> of modern craftspeople becoming imprisoned by narratives, and unable to
> >> think outside of them? Is it creative to use an idea from a story about
> >> children who never existed to craft a way of doing things? Or is this
> >> modern era filled with victims of their foolish ancestors, who filled
> their
> >> minds with lies and delusions?
> >>
> >> Plato. I suppose I must regard the use of this story as a creative form
> of
> >> thought, because surely the people who use such tools must be able to
> free
> >> themselves from the limits of the story from which the word
> "breadcrumb" is
> >> drawn.
> >>
> >> Soc. Do you suppose that it is possible someone who does not know such
> >> stories is at a disadvantage, such as a carpenter might be if he had one
> >> kind of adze?
> >>
> >> Plato. I do not like to think that someone requires a narrative to think
> >> with, but I suppose it could be true, Socrates.
> >>
> >> Soc. Is it possible, then, my dear Plato, that the poet is not always a
> >> danger to society?
> >>
> >> Plato. I am unwilling to go so far, Socrates. Yet I must concede that in
> >> some ways, and in some cases, poets may have some value to society.
> >>
> >> Soc. Perhaps I hear a muse murmuring in my ears, like the sound of the
> >> flute in the ears of the mystic; that voice, I say, is humming in my
> ears,
> >> and prevents me from hearing any other. This muse tells me that poetry
> is,
> >> after all, a gift of the gods, just as is any other gift. And I know
> that
> >> anything more which you will say against the value of narratives will
> be in
> >> vain. Yet speak, if you have anything to say.
> >>
> >> Plato. I have nothing to say, Socrates.
> >>
> >> Soc. Then let me follow the intimations of the will of the god.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Doug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:06 AM, CAITLIN WUBBENA <
> >> cwubbena@gse.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi! I am a graduate student at Penn working on my Master's paper in
> >> foundations/philosophy of education. I am taking a course with Andrew
> >> Babson and he recommended I post here for some feedback/advice.
> >>
> >> Loosely, my topic is centered on Plato's notion of play/seriousness. I
> want
> >> to explore why intellectual play is vital for success in higher ed and
> >> envision this particular project (it's a relatively short lit review)
> as an
> >> analysis of the historical context that has allowed this conversation to
> >> happen in academia. At this point, I plan to cite Plato, Kierkegaard
> >> (Socratic irony), and Dewey. I've also been introduced to Vygotsky and
> >> Kendall Walton. The main challenge is bridging the conversation to
> higher
> >> ed.
> >>
> >> Any advice on where to go, books/articles to look into, etc would be
> >> greatly appreciated!
> >>
> >> -Caitlin
> >>
>