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[Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces



Yip Harburg was the topic of a Fresh Air interview (Terry Gross, NPR) back in 1999:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1110695

You can still hear it!

H

Helena Worthen
helenaworthen@gmail.com
Vietnam blog: helenaworthen.wordpress.com

On Jul 13, 2017, at 9:30 AM, mike cole wrote:

> Good morning, Peter
> 
> The immediate winner was Kris Gutierrez!
> Kris does not drink Irish whiskey, so the prize will be held over until the
> next appropriate occasion.  :-)
> 
> The director? Francis Ford Coppola.
> !!
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 6:19 AM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Darn!  Because of my failing recall memory, I'm not gonna be the proud
>> owner of a free bottle of Irish whiskey!
>> 
>> But I can tell you all a little more about Yip Harberg's work: For one
>> thing, underlying Finnian's Rainbow - like most of Harberg's creations - is
>> a serious progressive political message, in this case one about immigration
>> to America (and also racism in America). The quote from Harberg that I
>> provided in my earlier email was one that I tripped over on the way to
>> recovering this, more humorous,one: *My whole family has had trouble with
>> immigrants ever since we first came to this country.*
>> 
>> The Wizard of Oz was a political story about the loss of small farms in
>> America (represented by the Scarecrow), the rise of manufacturing
>> (represented by the Tin Man), and the timidity of the US government
>> (represented by the Cowardly Lion) in regulating the growing banking
>> industry which was pulling all the strings (represented by the Wizard
>> behind the curtain). Harberg makes particular mention of the difficulty he
>> had with the song Somewhere Over the Rainbow: For weeks he couldn't figure
>> out a way to get an emotional lift out of the opening line - until he
>> introduced an octave shift in the first word (Some - where). The meaning of
>> the word was there, but it needed an emotional infusion from the music to
>> make it do its job of *feeling a thought*.
>> 
>> One final quote: *Music gives wings to words.*
>> 
>> Glad to know there are Yip Harberg fans out there!
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 12:47 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> A free bottle of Irish Whiskey to the first person who can
>> identify,without
>>> googling, the director of the film of Finian's Rainbow.
>>> 
>>> mike
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Lplarry <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Imagine that ;-  )
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>>>> 
>>>> From: mike cole
>>>> Sent: July 12, 2017 8:22 PM
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Inner thought in theater pieces
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Ed-- How could you NOT feel something that was imagined? Imagine you
>>> won
>>>> the lottery? Imagine you come home tired tomorrow evening? Imagine what
>>> you
>>>> like, but imagine it without a feeling about it? sounds like a
>> pathology
>>>> (!)
>>>> 
>>>> I have discovered that  a movie of Finian's rainbow is pretty widely
>>>> accessible. you tube, amazon, elsewhere. If you read the entry in
>>>> wikipedia, or the info I discovered at the Harburg Foundation, you will
>>> be
>>>> able to discern the affinity between Harburg and xmca.  For example:
>>>> 
>>>> Feisty Irishman Finian McLonergan (Fred Astaire) and his faithful
>>> daughter,
>>>> Sharon (Petula Clark), bearing a pot of gold stolen from the leprechaun
>>> Og
>>>> (Tommy Steele), settle in the village of Rainbow Valley, Missitucky.
>>> Siding
>>>> with local sharecroppers like Woody Mahoney (Don Francks) against a
>>>> blustering,
>>>> bigoted local politician (Keenan Wynn), the McLonergans get into a
>> number
>>>> of fanciful scrapes while being pursued by the magical Og, who will
>>> become
>>>> mortal if he doesn't recover his gold.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Now I am off to watch the movie!  :-)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> mike
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Edward Wall <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Late to this conversation; however, I been thinking about whether one
>>> can
>>>>> feel something that is imagined and, if so, what would it be like
>>> (there
>>>> is
>>>>> some debate about this). It would seem that Harberg, to some extent,
>>> says
>>>>> “yes" with “Songs make you feel a thought.” Quite interesting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ed Wall
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2017, at  7:34 PM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Whoa! Small world. I learn something new about the wonderful Yip
>>>> Harberg
>>>>>> and that the Fennyhough is on kindle in adjacent message on xmca!
>> The
>>>>> book
>>>>>> appears to converge on a lot of long term xmca concerns. (And to
>>> listen
>>>>> to
>>>>>> Finian's rueful refrain again would be a joy)
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Having the book simultaneously available and less than 100$ is a
>>> great
>>>>>> resource.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks Peter and Daniel.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> mike
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Daniel Hyman <
>>>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you for these compelling and heartfelt thoughts, Peter. I'm
>>>>> scoping
>>>>>>> up the book on Kindle and may have further reflections or
>> questions
>>>> for
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> over the next few weeks. There was an NPR Radiolab episode a few
>>> years
>>>>> ago
>>>>>>> about people with damaged limbic systems who couldn't make
>>> decisions -
>>>>>>> perhaps pertinent to the concept of unity of thought and feeling,
>>>> which
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> would also like to take a closer look at.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kind regards and many thanks,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi, Daniel.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fernyhough's book doesn't delve into the intricacies of a
>>> musician's
>>>>>>> *inner
>>>>>>>> ear*,
>>>>>>>> but he does cover internal speech without sound, internal sound
>>>> without
>>>>>>>> words,
>>>>>>>> the internal *felt presence* of a person who doesn't speak, and
>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>> that are disembodied. From these and other examples he suggests
>>> that
>>>>>>>> hearing
>>>>>>>> voices is a much richer phenomenon than just auditory perception:
>>> it
>>>> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> surface
>>>>>>>> level of an inner experience that embraces the imagining of a
>>>> *person*,
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> an individual point of view and a characteristic voice. Only
>> pieces
>>>> of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> inner
>>>>>>>> person may come to be experienced consciously.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regarding the deaf, Fernyhough explores inner signing and inner
>>>>> voices--
>>>>>>>> yes,
>>>>>>>> deaf people who hear voices internally but who have never had the
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>> of hearing the voices of others! Many of the internal musical
>>>>> experiences
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> you mention have auditory parallels in the case studies he
>>> presents.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As a former musician myself (in my youth), I have always wondered
>>>> about
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> musicians who claim to have perfect pitch. I don't possess that
>>>>> ability,
>>>>>>>> but I have
>>>>>>>> absolutely no need for a tuning device when I tune my guitar
>>> strings:
>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> inner
>>>>>>>> (and outer) ear is all I need.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Since you raised the issue of the pairings of words and music,
>> I'd
>>>> like
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> take this
>>>>>>>> opportunity to share a favorite quote from Yip Harberg, classmate
>>> of
>>>>> Ira
>>>>>>>> Gershwin
>>>>>>>> and composer of the words and music for The Wizard of Oz,
>> Finnian's
>>>>>>>> Rainbow,
>>>>>>>> and the Depression-era song Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?
>> Harberg
>>>>> gave
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>> of thought to the relation between music and words, noting that:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Music makes you feel a feeling;
>>>>>>>> Words make you think a thought;
>>>>>>>> Songs make you feel a thought.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The quote above came to mind as I was eavesdropping on an earlier
>>>>>>>> conversation
>>>>>>>> on this listserv (a month ago!) concerning Vygotsky's notion of
>> the
>>>>> unity
>>>>>>>> of thinking
>>>>>>>> and emotions in the formation of the human personality.
>>> Personally, I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>> conjuring up an image of *emotions*, but I have no difficulty
>>>>>>> experiencing
>>>>>>>> emotions
>>>>>>>> when they take a musical form. I am much more comfortable
>> thinking
>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> feelings
>>>>>>>> than I am about feeling thoughts. Intellectualizing emotions is a
>>>>>>> cultural
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>> that many men excel at, I suspect.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My two cents.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:33 PM, Daniel Hyman <
>>>>>>> daniel.a.hyman.0@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Many thanks to both Ulvi and Peter for the points about internal
>>>>>>> speech,
>>>>>>>>> its role in drama, and Fernyhough's work from last year. As I'm
>> a
>>>>>>>> musician,
>>>>>>>>> they bring to mind (hopefully) related questions (apparently
>>> glanced
>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> The Voices Within) which I'd be grateful to know more about, in
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> contexts of psychology or neurobiology:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - Musicians use the term "inner ear" (though "inner voice" might
>>> be
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> specific) to denote the faculty of being able to subjectively
>>> "hear"
>>>>>>>>> melody, song, chant/rap (rhythmic words without melody), (groups
>>> of)
>>>>>>>>> instruments and the like, untethered to physical sound. The most
>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>> cases concern composers such as Beethoven, Smetana, and Fauré
>> who
>>>> lost
>>>>>>>>> their hearing in adulthood. But anyone who can read a score,
>>>> practice
>>>>>>>>> toward matching a concrete tonal image, recall a concert,
>> audiate
>>>> what
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> are about to play or sing, or receive new musical ideas, does
>>> this.
>>>>>>> Need
>>>>>>>>> one only be a trained musician, or are there other paths to this
>>>>>>> ability?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - Some "inner ear" experiences are paired with words, others
>> with
>>>>>>> events
>>>>>>>>> (e.g., birdcalls, thunderstorms, night sounds of nature, the
>>>> quickened
>>>>>>>>> pulse of desire, galloping horses' hooves), some with waves of
>>>>> feelings
>>>>>>>>> that might fit words (or not), some are simply music. How are
>>> these
>>>>>>>> alike,
>>>>>>>>> and different?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - Some pairings of words and music are socially organized
>> (Mozart
>>>> and
>>>>>>> da
>>>>>>>>> Ponte, Rodgers and Hammerstein, George and Ira Gershwin), others
>>>>>>> internal
>>>>>>>>> to one person (Wagner, Mahler). How are these alike and
>> different?
>>>> How
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> parody (the type where new words are fitted to an old tune)
>> relate
>>>> to
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> live composer setting words from a past poet?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - Tinnitus (ringing in the ears after hearing loss) is now
>>> suggested
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the effect of the brain filling in tones it "thinks" are
>> happening
>>>> but
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> heard. Is this purely physical, or can experience, training,
>>>>>>> reflection,
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> other factors alter it?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I guess the common thread is, what do psychology and
>> neurobiology
>>>>> offer
>>>>>>>> (or
>>>>>>>>> promise) to help us understand these types of musical
>> experience,
>>>>>>>> ability,
>>>>>>>>> and disability? Thanks in advance to anyone moved to chime in,
>> or
>>>>>>>> recommend
>>>>>>>>> readings.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Ulvi İçil <
>> ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you Peter.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 12 Tem 2017 17:38 tarihinde "Peter Feigenbaum [Staff]" <
>>>>>>>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> yazdı:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Ulvi,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Your questions about the science of inner speech monologue and
>>> its
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> the analysis of theatrical material - to convey the internal
>>>>>>> richness
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> ​the ​
>>>>>>>>>>> emotion
>>>>>>>>>>> ​
>>>>>>>>>>> and thought
>>>>>>>>>>> ​​
>>>>>>>>>>> ​of
>>>>>>>>>>> characters
>>>>>>>>>>> ​ - are tangentially addressed by Charles Fernyhough
>>>>>>>>>>> in his recent book The Voices Within. Charles is a colleague
>> who
>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's
>>>>>>>>>>> theory of private and inner speech development, but who
>>>> specializes
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> the dialogicality of inner speech and its role in people who
>>> hear
>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> both normal
>>>>>>>>>>> and hallucinatory. While he doesn't directly address the issue
>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> theatrical characters,
>>>>>>>>>>> he does provide insights - based on evidence and research -
>> into
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> creative
>>>>>>>>>>> writing process of novelists, and the various roles that inner
>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>> play
>>>>>>>>>>> in their
>>>>>>>>>>> work and thought.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I highly recommend this book because of the admirable way in
>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> Fernyhough
>>>>>>>>>>> manages to navigate highly complicated issues concerning a
>>>>>>> phenomenon
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> is largely elusive - even though it constitutes the highest
>>> stage
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>>>>> of verbal thinking. As a less courageous researcher, I chose
>> to
>>>>>>> study
>>>>>>>>>>> private speech
>>>>>>>>>>> because the data are empirical and tangible, subject to
>>> linguistic
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> sociolinguistic
>>>>>>>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>>>>>>>>> amazon.com_Voices-2DWithin-2DHistory-2DScience-2D&d=DwIFaQ&c=
>>>>>>>>> aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=
>>>>>>>>> mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=
>>>>>>>>> iXFaj8Q4I5K2fbAjp7wwg7xDtlZs8s_s7DI7l664u24&s=
>>>>>>>>> DEs5D5eLtGRTqr_XA8tkmjg4GFaAp_30zW3KKzPHIqg&e=
>>>>>>>>>>> Ourselves/dp/0465096808
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Ulvi İçil <
>> ulvi.icil@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nazim Hikmet uses widely inner  thought and momologue in a
>> work
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> convey
>>>>>>>>>>>> the internal richness of emotion and thought of his
>> characters.
>>>>>>>>>>> Especially
>>>>>>>>>>>> inner thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The name of the work is Ferhad and Sirin, and another name is
>>>>>>>> Legend
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> love.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone can see the very interesting content of the work,
>>>>>>> characters
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> struggle in a triangle of love.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a quite successful work, played by Bolshoi.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> My questions are:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the science of psychology make wide use of such theater
>>>>>>> work?
>>>>>>>>> i.e.
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of the inner thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the science of pscyhology make use of such theater work
>> in
>>>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> human development? i.e. in terms of the "defects" human
>> beings
>>>>>>>>> possess.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>> Director,
>>>>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>> Director,
>> Office of Institutional Research
>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>> Fordham University
>> Thebaud Hall-202
>> Bronx, NY 10458
>> 
>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>