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[Xmca-l] Re: Current takes on the 'later' Vygotsky



Mike,
to me a clue would be the last couple of paragraphs of *Thinking and Speech*,
what he says about the word being reality for two but impossible for one.
Same for commodity, indeed, this goes back to Feuerbach's articulation of a
Spinozist-materialist approach, and thus would have been consistent with
the other Spinozist inclinations of Vygotsky during that final period. It
would be consistent with the emergence of the general (Kapital), as
articulated by Il'enkov and, with respect to consciousness, by
Mamardashvili.
Michael

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
Applied Cognitive Science
MacLaurin Building A567
University of Victoria
Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>

New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
<https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>*

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Perhaps, Michael.
>
> Lets see what Pablo and Amelia have to say.
> mike
>
> On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My hunch would be that he was heading toward a Marxian perspective. In a
> > 2006 article in SEMIOTICA (appended), I showed how when you replace
> > "commodity" in *Das Kapital *by "sign" and all examples of commodities by
> > examples of signs, you get texts that could have been written by
> > philosophers of difference.
> > At the time, I didn't understand much of Vygotsky, the earlier or the
> > later---I guess, I still don't if you take as a measure everything we,
> as a
> > culture, know about his writing and thinking---and I was still thinking
> > more in the old way. But I already did suggest that we can think
> > differently about language, moving away from reference and "meaning."
> > Michael
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------------
> > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> > Applied Cognitive Science
> > MacLaurin Building A567
> > University of Victoria
> > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> >
> > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> > mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Larry,
> > > The late Vygotsky quote you offered sounds very much like Peirce (P was
> > > critical of "correspondence" theories of semiosis (V's NOT a relation
> > > between sound and thing), and the intrepretant is about the holding of
> a
> > > particular sign relation in the same way as another (V's unity)).
> Perhaps
> > > Vygotsky's late turn was from a Saussurean understanding of the sign
> to a
> > > Peircean one?
> > > -greg
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 6:36 AM, <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Alfredo,
> > > > I offer a quote from the ‘later’ Vygotsky that you cite in your
> article
> > > > that may prime the pump:
> > > >
> > > > Language is NOT the relation between a sound and a denoted thing.  It
> > is
> > > > the relation between the speaker and the listener, the relation
> between
> > > > people directed toward an object.  IT IS THE INTERPSYCHIC REACTION
> THAT
> > > > ESTABLISHES THE UNITY OF TWO ORAGANISMS IN THE SAME ORIENTATION,
> Toward
> > > an
> > > > object
> > > >
> > > > The focus hear on ‘establishing the UNITY’ of teacher and student IN
> > > their
> > > > orientation.
> > > > The IN includes (within)
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >
> > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > Sent: April 9, 2017 5:21 AM
> > > > To: Alfredo Jornet Gil; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: RE: [Xmca-l] Current takes on the 'later' Vygotsky
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo,
> > > > I have been slowly reading (and digesting) your and Wolff-Michael’s
> > > > article (Theorizing – with/out mediators) that joins the current
> > ‘takes’
> > > on
> > > > the later Vygotsky.
> > > >
> > > > My impression (and appreciation) of this emerging tradition is
> > > significant
> > > > as  an enlarging of the scope and ‘re-working’ of the Vygotsky who
> was
> > > > known in the process of moving into the West European  and North
> > Atlantic
> > > > form of theorizing.
> > > >
> > > > I am reading your article in relation to the notion of ‘playworlds’
> and
> > > > ‘spielraum’ (translated playrooms).
> > > >
> > > > A key re-working of (mediation) has to do with re/thinking triangle
> > > > diagrams as static (with mediation at the apex).
> > > > This generates a PREsumption of two variables at the base of the
> > triangle
> > > > assumed as (elements, essences, things) that inter/act through an
> > > > ‘intermediary’ third (element, essence, thing).
> > > > Your article indicates this is the classical or canonical version of
> > > > (mediation) as the third thing/element through which the other two
> > > > things/elements become changed or develop.
> > > >
> > > > Your re-working of (mediation) adds the temporal, duration, and (unit
> > of
> > > > analysis) and implies it is not the elements or parts that each
> > > > individually change or develop (classic intermediary model of
> elements
> > > > transformed by going through a third element IN a triangle with an
> apex
> > > > mediator)
> > > > But rather
> > > > There are only relation of (within UNITS).
> > > > When a tool, technique, sign, word, artifact) develops then the
> ENTIRE
> > > > UNIT (not elements) develops.
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo, I personally believe your approach (currently re-working
> > > > classical and Western canonical versions) deserves to have its own
> > > (place)
> > > > as a subsection on the XMCA site. To become more clear on this
> ‘later’
> > > > Vygotsky.
> > > > Then a conversation may generate that puts in question this
> re-working
> > > > BUT
> > > > In a spirit of ‘play’ in rooms.
> > > > A movement back and forth, oscillating, spiralling, developing, and
> > never
> > > > reaching a determinate conclusion, once and forever.
> > > >
> > > > Putting in play triangles with mediators at the apex as static
> > diagrams.
> > > > More open, fluid, theorizing with ANDA WITHOUT ‘mediators’ as we play
> > > with
> > > > these notions.
> > > >
> > > > I recommend others read the article ‘Theorizing with/out mediators’.
> > > > Reading the (/) to mean interval where we tarry awhile in a spirit of
> > > > re-working theorizing with/out mediators.
> > > >
> > > > I believe we need to create a subsection on XMCA to let these notions
> > > > percolate and permeate the more classical boundary markers.
> > > >
> > > > My way of saying your article is a pro-found re-working of the
> notions
> > of
> > > > (within) and (without) and (mediation) at the core of this re-working
> > > > PRE-assumptions.
> > > >
> > > > My morning muse
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > > >
> > > > From: Alfredo Jornet Gil
> > > > Sent: April 8, 2017 10:20 PM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Current takes on the 'later' Vygotsky
> > > >
> > > > Hi Esteban,
> > > >
> > > > yes, things have been a little quiet lately, but there have been few
> > > > threads going on, perhaps most importantly the one discussing Jang's
> > > (this
> > > > issue's) paper on multi-ethnic issues on Second Language.
> > > >
> > > > Other threads have seemed to resonate on recent articles/works
> > attempting
> > > > to re-work (or work further) some of Vygotsky's key concepts, in
> > > particular
> > > > ZPD and Mediation (with a couple of articles having been circulated).
> > > >
> > > > Connecting to the latter, it seems that several of those efforts are
> > > > making emphasis on Vygotsky's later period, suggesting that much of
> the
> > > > prior and current uptakes have focused almost exclusively on the
> > > > instrumental aspects that were more salient in his middle period, and
> > not
> > > > so much on the lines of inquiry that the psychologist was opening
> never
> > > had
> > > > the chance to pursue.
> > > >
> > > > I attach yet another such work, this time by del Río and Álvarez.
> Much
> > is
> > > > being written about how and to what extent Vygotsky was revising his
> > own
> > > > prior work. This one tells as more about that, and does so both in
> > > English
> > > > and in Spanish.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder how do xmca'ers (who likely are busy reading world news as
> > > things
> > > > are getting more and more perplexing) feel and think about this
> > > > tendency/prospect in cultural-historical theory literature.
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > > on behalf of Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> > > > Sent: 09 April 2017 03:11
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playworlds, Performance, Perezhivanie,
> > Apophasis
> > > > ... and TRUMP'S speech!
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Esteban -
> > > >
> > > > Things have been a little quiet recently. I suspect my co-xmca-ers in
> > the
> > > > US are either mid-semester or digging in on big projects that will
> have
> > > > some significance, hopefully, given what we’re dealing with here.
> > > >
> > > > You may or may not be aware that our new Secretary of Education is
> the
> > > > sister of Erik Prince, http://www.ibtimes.com/who-
> > > > betsy-devos-brother-erik-princes-involvement-
> blackwater-chinese-money-
> > > > laundering-2493834
> > > >
> > > > Just a hint of what is happening to education, top to bottom, in the
> > US.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Helena
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Helena Worthen
> > > > helenaworthen@gmail.com
> > > > Berkeley, CA 94707
> > > > Blog about US and Viet Nam: helenaworthen.wordpress.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 8, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Stephen Diaz <EDiaz@csusb.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Bruce,
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't know if you are still the one for xmcc but I am not getting
> any
> > > > emails from that list serve.  Can you please check on that.  I still
> > want
> > > > to continue on it if possible.  Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Esteban Diaz
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > edu
> > > >
> > > > on behalf of Bruce Jones <bjones@ucsd.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 3:23 PM
> > > > > To: mike cole; Andy Blunden; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Playworlds, Performance, Perezhivanie,
> > Apophasis
> > > > ... and TRUMP'S speech!
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2/5/17 2:39 PM, mike cole wrote:
> > > > >> Bruce's email is not bouncing from san diego.
> > > > >> Perhaps there is only one c in unsubscribe?
> > > > >
> > > > > Spelling mistakes will not cause bounces.  I do the unsubscribes by
> > > hand
> > > > > in order to make sure they are removed from the database.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bruce Jones
> > > > > Sys Admin, LCHC
> > > > > bjones@ucsd.edu
> > > > > 619-823-8281
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > >
> >
>