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[Xmca-l] Re: Jang's SL Article Discussion



Dear David



Thank you for the interesting and helpful comments on my paper! I really
enjoyed your comments and was also pleased to receive your questions about
Juan in my earlier paper (TESOL Quarterly). I attach my paper here so that
other colleagues can read it if they want.



Yes, I do think that what happened in the ESL classroom can be understood
from the  "pedological" end as well, as you said. The point that I wanted
to make in my study was that we should understand 'why a learner acts in
certain way' from multiple perspectives. It is just like a piece of a
multilayered cake.

By the way, I think I need to learn more about what you meant by
'defectological' end.  When you said 'defect', did you mean some problems
that people might have in their development? If so, I would like to share
my opinion. Everyone might have some problems that they must handle (and
problems that can be handled by some great pedagogical methods). Sometimes
the problems are minor (curable) and sometimes they are not (such as
blindness). However, not all of them are on the same level or same
dimension. In other words, I think we cannot equate some life's challenges
(such as illness) and racial discrimination. They are on different levels.
The latter is intrinsically social, I think. Further, in multicultural
education, 'deficit' has very negative connotation because it alludes that
there are some 'perfect' things in opposition.



Here, I also pasted my response to your earlier email (off the xmca list)
below to share it with otehrs.



Thank you very much for your ‘off-list’ email and interests in my articles.
Thanks to you, I was happy to remind of Juan, the lovely little boy who I
was with for more than a year.



Yes, we did have an interview with Juan. The other author, Chris Iddings’
first language was Spanish so she was able to communicate with Juan with no
problem. But I remember that whether Juan understood the situation or not
was decided from our observations of his actions. In particular, the focus
of our observations was on the ways the joint attentional frames were
formed because we thought the frames played a critical role as a
mediational means in facilitating Juan’s learning. Oh, I also recall that
when we say Juan’s learning, it was not always learning of English but also
learning of the classroom discourses. About the quiet mouse events, Juan
wanted to be picked eagerly by pointing his finger to his own chest and
contacting eyes with the student with the mouse. About the testing, I
remember that Juan did understand the procedure of the testing and acted
like a student but in fact, it appeared that he was not able to get the
right answers in terms of English. Well, this should not be a problem
because understanding the classroom discourses would serve a scaffolding
for him to learn contents eventually.  Hope my brief answer has satisfied
your curiosity about my study a bit.



David, I think we have a lot in common. Let’s keep in touch. I’d love to
drop by the Dasomcha meeting some day! By the way, I have been in SIG for
Critical Pedagogy for almost 6years. If you have a plan to visit Korea
again, you are invited to our Critical Pedagogy meeting as well!



Best,

EY.







On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 6:28 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Professor Jang:
>
> Relax, you are among friends and co-thinkers. Well, a lot of friends, some
> of whom are probably very close co-thinkers. It's a very big list, but I
> doubt if anybody who read your article would accuse you of teacher bashing.
> I also don't think anybody who read it would think that you used your
> Korean-ness in any other way than a good researcher uses any resource that
> affords empathy with the researched. And I DO think that you provided "a"
> way of bridging a socioculural and a cognitivist approach to the second
> language classroom. Perhaps even two ways.
>
> It seems to me that one way is from the "contextualist" end; that is, to
> redefine a context in abstract terms, including things like attitudes,
> motivations, and teaching ideologies right in the context. I think this is
> actually much more difficult than it looks: some people will consider this
> behavioristic, because it assumes that attitudes, motivations and
> ideologies can be treated as external to mind. I think it actually only
> considers them as external to text. Other people will consider it upwardly
> reductionistic, because it assumes that attitudes, motivations and
> ideologies can be reduced to society and to culture and to context of
> situation. I think that society and culture and context of situation must
> always be considered as a complex whole, including cognition, but not
> subsuming it.
>
> It also seems to me that another is from the "organicist" end; that is, to
> define attitudes, motivations, and ideologies as something in some way
> independent of cognition (the "distributed cognition" people are good at
> this). Again, this isn't so easy, particularly in an American context.
> America is now going through a kind of crisis, because racism has
> previously been defined in only one of two ways. Either racism is part of
> cognition--in which case it really only exists in people who subscribe,
> paradoxically, to "objective" scientific racism, to the belief that
> non-whites are actually inferior. Or racism is part of culture--in which
> case it really only exists in the debilitating effects it has on the
> oppressed, and it doesn't really matter what it is that racists believe
> (or, for that matter, what non-racists believe: Obama was just as guilty of
> black unemployment as Bush).
>
> What I suggest is, rather perversely, a third way. It's from the
> "pedological, defectological" end. That is, attitudes, motivations and the
> teaching ideologies which derive from them need to be understood not only
> as part of the context but also as part of pedology, a whole science of the
> child. Unfortunately, Vygotsky's writings on this are not available in
> English, but they ARE available in good Korean:
>
> http://www.aladin.co.kr/shop/common/wseriesitem.aspx?SRID=25565
>
> Similarly, the ravages of racism (including the "damunhwa kyoyuk" developed
> in Korea under Yi Myeongbak and Park Geunhye, which was concerned with
> providing "equal opportunity" to the majority as well as to the minority)
> need to be considered not simply as stigma on the dominant race or as
> stigmata of the oppressed but more defectologically. "Defect" wasn't an
> insult in the USSR: Vygotsky actually considers "yeongje kyoyuk" (that is,
> "genius education"), education of the blind, education of the deaf,
> so-called "learning disabilities" not as "disabilities" but as
> defects--that is, normal disadvantages to be overcome in the same way as
> any other obstacle in learning, through "circuitous and indirect", that is,
> mediated, means of learning. We have evolved our means of education, as
> Vygotsky says, to cater to the needs of the psychophysiological dominant
> group, but the mark of higher forms of social progress is how it can
> develop the niches within this and the needs of those who are not
> psychophysiologically dominant.
>
> (Do you know Professor Kim Jinseok? I worked at SNUE for over ten years
> myself, and our Vygotsky group still meets there every Saturday to
> translate the work of Vygotsky into Korean. If you are on campus on a
> Saturday, we are usually in room 315, over "Dasomchae" near the front gate,
> from noon until about four!)
>
> David Kellogg
> Macquarie University
>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Eun Young Jang <eunyoung1112@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ​
> >
> > Hi everyone, thank you very much for reading my article. This is such a
> > great opportunity for me to introduce my work and receive comments from
> > wonderful colleagues.
> >
> > First, let me introduce myself briefly. I earned my doctorate in
> Language,
> > Literacy, and Culture in the Department of Teaching and Learning at
> > Vanderbilt University. I am currently working as an assistant professor
> in
> > Multicultural Education at Seoul National University of Education located
> > in Seoul, South Korea. My research interests are in the impact of the
> > social context on second language teaching and learning. Another paper
> > published recently deals with sustainable globalization of higher
> education
> > focusing on cultures and languages in a foreign professor’s classroom in
> S.
> > Korea. My current research project is about North Korean refugee students
> > learning English in South Korea.
> >
> >
> > My article for xmca discussion was initiated from my observation that ESL
> > students were not actually focusing on learning English in the ESL
> > classroom but instead, on ‘acting’ learning with an attempt to achieve
> > certain social position (as an individual or a group). In particular, I
> > noted that they were quite skillful in using ‘seemingly’ academic
> > strategies to conceal what they were actually doing.
> >
> >
> >
> > The ESL students were very sensitive to things happening to them in terms
> > of marginalization and discrimination but did not reveal to others
> > explicitly what they really thought. Instead, they took advantage of the
> > school discourse that was legitimized in the context, that was, acting
> like
> > motivated and strategic learners by participating in class activities
> > actively and strategically. In spite of regular observations of ESL
> classes
> > back then, I could not figure out what was happening in the classroom for
> > the first couple of months. Later on, the social dynamics among students
> > and between students and the teacher surfaced to me and also they began
> to
> > open their minds and told me how they felt isolated and discriminated.
> > Then, I was able to see the meanings of their actions.
> >
> >
> >
> > In effect, the ESL teacher tried hard to be fair and in a sense, the
> French
> > student was isolated and discriminated by the Korean students in the ESL
> > classroom. Nevertheless, Korean students victimized themselves. I thought
> > that it was still important and valuable to acknowledge how the Korean
> > students felt simply because the feelings were there and they made some
> > consequences (such as silencing the French student). I wanted to reveal
> > that how the students felt and why they felt that way and how they
> reacted
> > to their feelings. Whether the discrimination was real or not was not
> > important.
> >
> >
> >
> > A reviewer from other journal has criticized my article badly for teacher
> > bashing. But definitely I did not mean it. Also, some readers of my
> article
> > said that because I am Korean, I was on the Korean students’ side. The
> fact
> > was, the ESL teacher and I were good friends and this even made the
> Korean
> > students suspicious of my position (like a spy from the ‘white’ teacher
> > side). Anyway, honestly, the comments from other scholars made me feel
> > constrained conducting research about the same ethnic group. Now, I’d
> like
> > to know about your opinion about this issue.
> >
> > Again, the fact that the participants were Korean was not the main focus
> of
> > my study. I wanted to show how they used strategies, which were typically
> > categorized as individual and cognitive traits, for social purposes. So,
> > the bigger agenda of my study was to explore “a” way to bridge the
> > dichotomy between individual and sociocultural camps.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > EY.
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:12 AM, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Alfredo:
> > >
> > > Down the hall one of the Chinese translators is working on translations
> > of
> > > the Chinese "State of the Union" address into English. The Chinese goes
> > > something like this:
> > >
> > > 消除贫困取得进展。
> > > xiāochú pínkùn qǔdé jìnzhǎn.
> > >
> > > Literally:
> > >
> > > "Eradicate Poverty Achieve Progress", i.e. "(The government) (made)
> some
> > > progress in the eradication of poverty."
> > >
> > > In Chinese we don't have to specify the agent, and we don't need to use
> > the
> > > effective verb "made"; it's a happening and not a doing. This used to
> be
> > > because the agent went without saying--it's encoded in the grammar.
> > Partly
> > > thanks to a poetic tradition going back more than a thousand years,
> > Chinese
> > > lends itself to four-syllable slogan-like objects like "Eradicate
> > Poverty"
> > > and "Achieve Progress", and putting them together sounds natural. We
> > don't
> > > usually use a subject unless we want to stress it; it's much more
> common
> > to
> > > just have a nominal topic and then a comment, like in this example.
> > Because
> > > the government has a well established role in mobilizing the masses to
> > > carry out actions like famine relief and flood prevention and so on,
> the
> > > agent and the "doing" don't need to be specified: everybody knows it
> was
> > > the government, even if that weren't clear in the context of a
> government
> > > report. So we simply say it's a happening.
> > >
> > > Now that's changing. In fact, the government does relatively little to
> > > alleviate poverty. There are regional enterprises, and there are
> private
> > > businesses and so on. After the Sichuan earthquake, my brother-in-law
> > > loaded up his SUV with bottled water and drove down to the earthquake
> > area
> > > to distribute it, and he says there was a huge traffic jam of other
> SUVs
> > by
> > > entrepreneurs like him who had exactly the same idea. And for precisely
> > > this reason, we find that in the government report there is more and
> more
> > > explicit stipulation of the government's agency and of the effective
> > means.
> > > Instead of just happening, the government does things. There is a
> similar
> > > link between ideology and ideation in English if you think about it.
> When
> > > something GOOD happens, it's because somebody DID it, but when
> something
> > > bad happens, "Stuff happens".
> > >
> > > Here's the point. We usually use "ideology" to mean something like
> > > conscious and deliberate ideation, usually of an intentionally
> deceitful
> > or
> > > misleading variety. I don't really accept that. It seems to me that
> > > "ideology" really is equivalent to ideation, that is, to the
> > communicative,
> > > representational function of speech, except that it is somewhat larger,
> > > both because the interpersonal and the textual functions also encode
> > ideas
> > > and are also therefore ideological and because a lot of ideology is
> > simply
> > > NOT specifying things. For example, when you say "it's raining", you
> are
> > > conveying the idea that rain is an event that just happens, and is not
> > > caused by any nameable entity. You don't normally say "it's birding" or
> > > even "it's shining".
> > >
> > > Similarly, we usually use "prescriptivism" to mean something like
> > conscious
> > > and deliberate transformativism, usually of an authoritarian and
> > > dictatorial, and deceptive, sort. I don't really accept that either. On
> > the
> > > contrary, what is really deceptive is to pretend that the process of
> > > education is meaningful without attending to its ultimate product. To
> me,
> > > "Eradicate Poverty Achieve Progress" is a perfect balance of process
> and
> > > product, and agency and effective means are only meaningful with
> respect
> > to
> > > both.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Macquarie University
> > >
> > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > > >
> > > > one thing that I find interesting in Jang's article, and which may
> > > connect
> > > > to comments in the other thread (by David, Haydi...) concerning 'not
> > > > reducing the political to the personal',  is the issue of *ideology.*
> > In
> > > > particular, Jang discusses and empirically examines what she coins
> as a
> > > > *Prescriptive* language ideology. As she describes in her paper, and
> as
> > > any
> > > > educator will immediately recognise, this ideology exists as the
> > > > classroom's orientations to a correct/incorrect form. In her article,
> > she
> > > > exhibits this through a number of sequences in which teacher-student
> > and
> > > > student-student relations involve *evaluations* with regard to
> > > proficiently
> > > > using two rules: making connections between sentences and staying on
> > the
> > > > topic.
> > > >
> > > > As Jang shows, the prescriptive approach, which sets the final
> linguist
> > > > form as the criterion for positively or negatively evaluating any
> > > response
> > > > by any student, is such that more proficient readers/speakers will
> have
> > > > easier access to positive evaluation. The ideology here then exists
> as
> > a
> > > > regime of power and differential access, of inequality. By treating
> all
> > > > equally, we get to inequality.
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking that it seems that the prescriptive approach does
> focus
> > on
> > > > the final product, whereas the sociocultural approach that Jang
> pursues
> > > and
> > > > Vygotsky first set forth has it that we should not focus on the final
> > > > product but on its genesis, on the way the verbal form exists first
> as
> > a
> > > > social relation between people. Thus, in Episodes 1 and 2 in the
> > article,
> > > > if the participants had oriented towards a possible process of
> > > development,
> > > > Ji-Woo's responses would have been heard and responded to as moments
> > in a
> > > > developmental trajectory. There would have been a very different
> social
> > > > situation in which work would have been directed to make visible and
> > > > available the dynamics of Ji-Woo's learning process. But the
> > prescriptive
> > > > orientation evaluates and makes salient only deficiency and
> > achievement.
> > > On
> > > > the other hand, and consistent with those (e.g., Stetsenko, Holzman)
> > who
> > > > have referred to Vygotsky's legacy as *revolutionary,* an orientation
> > > > consistent with Vygotsky's teachings would bring with it not only a
> > > > different situation, but also an *emancipatory* one. Instead of
> > > inequality
> > > > brought about by treating all equally, we would have an equalitarian
> > > > approach whose power resides in acknowledging and caring for history
> > and
> > > > diversity.
> > > >
> > > > On a side thought, and connected to David's (Halliday's) distinction
> > > > between ideational and interpersonal functions of language, I was
> > > wondering
> > > > what is the relation/difference between ideational and ideological.
> In
> > > the
> > > > article, it seems clear that the language related competence on
> putting
> > > > names to things and thereby building categories seems a condition for
> > the
> > > > racial/ethnic tension to exist. But of course, the tension is a
> > > relational,
> > > > not just a lexical one. Thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________________
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> edu
> > >
> > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > Sent: 13 March 2017 18:48
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l]  Jang's SL Article Discussion
> > > >
> > > > ​Dear all,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David has started some very interesting comments on the current
> article
> > > > for discussion on Tensions in Second Language Learning, which attach
> > > again
> > > > here. Because some of these comments have been given at a different
> > > thread,
> > > > I am starting here a thread that shall more centrally concern Jang's
> > > > article. I copy below all what David has so far written about the
> > > article.
> > > > I hope this will ​make it easy for Eun-Young and everyone else to
> > follow
> > > on
> > > > her article. I know ​Eun-Young is challenged time-wise by course
> > > > responsibilities and I hope this will make it easier for her.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Eun-Young, David mentions an article from 2011. If you wanted, you
> > could
> > > > also share the PDF with us for background, although the current
> article
> > > > gives more than enough material for discussion, I think.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Alfredo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------David Kellogg wrote: ------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > t's very interesting to compare this paper with Professor Jang's 2011
> > > > paper co-authored with Robert T. Jimenez:
> > > >
> > > > Eun-Young Jang & Robert T. Jiménez (2011) A Sociocultural Perspective
> > on
> > > > Second Language Learner Strategies: Focus on the Impact of Social
> > > Context,
> > > > Theory Into Practice,
> > > > 50:2, 141-148, DOI: 10.1080/00405841.2011.558443
> > > >
> > > > In some ways, the papers are very similar--the data is identical in
> one
> > > > place (p. 42), and the conclusions are for the most part congruent.
> But
> > > > consider how different the titles are. "Impact" in one place, and
> > > "tension"
> > > > in the other.
> > > >
> > > > There is this note to the 1935 version of Vygotsky's report on
> > > preschools,
> > > > where Zankov, Elkonin and Shif complain about Vygotsky's idea that
> the
> > > > child directs his or her own learning before preschool, the
> environment
> > > > directs it after preschool, and preschool therefore represents a kind
> > of
> > > > transitional stage. On the one hand, if the child is directing his or
> > her
> > > > own learning, how can we say that the environment is the ultimate
> > source
> > > of
> > > > learning? And if the environment is the ultimate source of learning,
> as
> > > > Vygotsky says, how can we say that the child is himself or herself
> part
> > > of
> > > > the environment?
> > > >
> > > > Professor Jang gets around this problem just as Vygotsky
> > does--adroitly.
> > > On
> > > > the one hand, strategies are expanded to include "sets of actions
> > > performed
> > > > to deal with problems (perceived by the researcher, indicated by the
> > > > learners)". On the other, contexts are expanded to include
> "pedagogical
> > > > assumptions, power relations, and interracial conflict".
> > > >
> > > > I think this solution to the problem is the correct one: when we
> > consider
> > > > the relationship of the child and the environment, we cannot treat it
> > > like
> > > > an unstoppable force meeting an unmoveable object. But for me that
> > means
> > > > that both the child and the environment have to be considered in
> > > "internal"
> > > > (that is, abstract, linguistic) terms. We can't think of speech as
> > > actions;
> > > > it's more useful to think of actions as speech. We can't think of the
> > > > social situation of development as a material setting: it's a
> > > relationship
> > > > with others.
> > > >
> > > > Contrariwise, it seems to me that when we consider "racism", it is
> more
> > > > helpful to consider it in "external", that is, concrete,
> nonlinguistic
> > > > terms. In the 2011 paper, Professor Jang and her co-author are
> willing
> > to
> > > > openly criticize the idea that languages are learned in exactly the
> > same
> > > > way whether they are first or second languages. Here, they just quote
> > the
> > > > teacher's comments on "mommy skills".
> > > >
> > > > It's a very revealing quote. One thing it reveals is why it's
> probably
> > > not
> > > > helpful to refer to "racist" as an "insult" (p. 40) or to imply that
> > > racism
> > > > and anti-racism is really just a matter of having the right attitude
> > (as
> > > > the Republicans did in the Sessions debate or as Bernie Sanders did
> > when
> > > he
> > > > referred to Trump supporters who voted for Obama as "not having a
> > racist
> > > > bone in their bodies").
> > > >
> > > > You can see that subjectively, the teacher is being anti-racist--all
> > > > students, French, Turkish, Egyptian, Korean, use the same strategies,
> > > just
> > > > like we all have mommies.She has all the right attitudes, and
> probably
> > > > doesn't have a racist bone in her body. But that doesn't diminish by
> > one
> > > > jot the terrible damage that this kind of indiscriminate
> discrimination
> > > > does in the classroom.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Macquarie University
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ On a related thread (Subject: Don't do it),
> > > David
> > > > K. wrote:--------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me that we need to clearly distinguish between "racism"
> and
> > > > "racist sentiment". One of the interesting problems that comes up in
> > > Eunhee
> > > > Jang's excellent article on second language learning strategies from
> a
> > > > sociocultural point of view--a wonderful piece of "inside" work,
> > > > introducing racial issues into an area where they have never been
> > > seriously
> > > > discussed--is the use of "racist" (by the Korean kids to describe
> their
> > > > teacher) as an "insult".
> > > >
> > > > I like the article. I think it's important work. But for that very
> > > reason,
> > > > I think that it's important to resist any attempt to reduce "racist"
> > to a
> > > > personal insult. I think we've seen very very clearly, both in the
> > > Sessions
> > > > confirmation hearing, and in the discussion of Trump's own
> anti-semitic
> > > > behavior--that this kind of reduction of the political to the
> personal
> > is
> > > > precisely the kind of reducing the sociocultural to the cognitive
> that
> > > > Professor Jang is trying to resist.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Macquarie University
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------- Idem as above-------------------------
> > > > ---------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > One of the interesting aspects of Professor Jang's paper is that it
> is
> > > > about adolescents who are in the process of forming concepts, but who
> > are
> > > > not there yet. And one way in which an adolescent forms a concept
> about
> > > the
> > > > difficult concept of a social contract, of citizenship, of
> nationality
> > is
> > > > pseudoconceptual: it is based on discussing "actual" perceptual
> > > differences
> > > > between races. This might seem irrelevant to current political
> > discourse.
> > > > Unfortunately, it isn't.​
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jang, Eun-Young. Ph.D.
> >
> > Assistant Professor, Graduate School of Education
> >
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > Seoul, S. Korea
> >
>



-- 

Jang, Eun-Young. Ph.D.

Assistant Professor, Graduate School of Education

Seoul National University of Education

Seoul, S. Korea

Attachment: 2008 TESOL Quarterly Chris and EY.pdf
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