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[Xmca-l] Re: Don't do it



Just for information:
When I wrote "the best educated and the most dangerous", I never thought to
anybody in terms of "the most dangerous" for any xmca'ers. I did not in any
way any idea to imply that.

I thought mainly to that corporate life especially, e.g. chocolate firms in
which child slavery in Cote d'Ivoire's cacao plantations is very
consciously ignored by middle class managers who serve capital or to Zara
for which child labor is exploited and also to the capitalist state
apparatus, to EU, to NATO, etc

Also in the "Don't do it", I did not the intention to imply that we are
doing intellectual chat here whereas outside the world is burning.

I am quite far away of such an anti-intellectualism.

On the contrary, I am fully well aware that the xmca community is one of
the best educated and most sensitive ones to humanity's problems.

And even though my formation allows me to understand only a small part of
it, I really appreciate very much the scientific work being done here for
years. It is really incredible.

Ulvi


On 14 March 2017 at 01:28, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, Peg. I really just meant to stress my own befuddlement. I am sure
> that these distinctions are clear to others somewhere (e.g., as Andy says,
> they are probably pretty clear to people who die as a result of them).
>
> dk
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:
>
> > Please, David, leave me out of your claims as  in your aside "and they
> > usually end up (as Peg did not too long ago) simply intoning that
> equating
> > the two is "wroooong" and that's it."
> > I do more than intone and it is not an "ending up" and it is not simple.
> > So, just leave me out of your claims.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@
> > mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of David Kellogg
> > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:50 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Don't do it
> >
> > ("Ulvi" is a beautiful Turkish name. I think it means "uplifted" or
> > "enlightened", or something like that.)
> >
> > We just had a revolution in South Korea, but in (at least) three ways it
> > was a rather disappointing one.
> >
> > Most obviously, it was a political revolution and not a social
> revolution.
> > On March 10 (at eleven in the morning precisely!) the Constitutional
> Court
> > upheld the December impeachment of President Park Geunhye for high crimes
> > and misdemeanours (a phrase that will stir the blood of our American
> > friends!) and removed her from power. But of course the underlying social
> > conditions, which are pretty close to what Ulvi described, are pretty
> much
> > the same. Ulvi says that a family of four in Istanbul has an income of,
> > say, 750 dollars a month, of which about a third goes for rent. In South
> > Korea the median income is about twice that, but housing is a great deal
> > more--the figure Ulvi gives us is about a weekly rent in Seoul). Social
> > polarization means that hardly anybody even has a median income--the
> > richest fifth of the population make six times what the bottom fifth
> makes.
> >
> > Secondly, the Constitutional Court upheld all the wrong articles of
> > impeachment. The President was removed for peddling influence on behalf
> of
> > a friend of her youth, whose father, a religious charlatan who claimed to
> > speak for the President's murdered mother, helped the young orphan
> through
> > a more than usually privileged, but more than usually difficult,
> childhood.
> > The actual influence peddling, in this instance, consisted mostly of
> > taxing the rich to give to fake charities set up for the upcoming
> Olympics
> > in Pyeongchang and for various other sporting events--not an ideal form
> of
> > social redistribution, but much to be preferred to profits as usual, and
> > very much less than male politicians in South Korea routinely get away
> > with. In contrast, the articles on blacklisting leftist opponents
> > (including at least two members of our Vygotsky group in Seoul) and her
> > grotesque dereliction of duty during the Seweol disaster (about which I
> > wrote on this list at the time) were set aside.
> >
> > Thirdly, it's really not over. There's going to be a presidential
> election
> > in sixty days, and unless something changes very fast we will simply get
> > Mun Jae-in, the candidate that Park defeated by judicious election
> rigging
> > and having the National Security Agency flood the country with...you
> > guessed it...slanderous tweets. I have had many friends, including
> devoted
> > members of our Vygotsky group, try to explain to me, for example, the
> > difference between Mun's health care plan and Park's, and they usually
> end
> > up (as Peg did not too long ago) simply intoning that equating the two is
> > "wroooong" and that's it. The party I voted for, which at the time was
> the
> > third largest in South Korea and the only working class party in
> > parliament, remains dissolved and its leaders remain jailed.
> >
> > But there WAS one thing in this revolution which I think was not at all
> > disappointing. Nobody got killed. I know, there were two people who died
> on
> > the last day, but it's not at all clear to me that they were killed: I
> > don't mean to sound heartless, and I know that Seoul weather is pretty
> > harsh at this time of year, but the president's supporters are
> > mostly--well, of a certain age, the age that remembers her father fondly;
> > on the one hand, they often not in the best of health and on the other
> they
> > tend to be excitable (in America, Korean students call them the "gas tank
> > grandpas", because they show up at demos with jerry cans of petrol and
> > lighters).
> >
> > Actually, Tom, this bloodlessness was the point that really got obscured
> > in the linguistic discussion. It was Ulvi himself who introduced the idea
> > that the arguments against revolution are usually imperatives, because
> they
> > are so manifestly untrue when they are put to rent-paying working class
> > families as declaratives. I don't see this as an irrelevance at all;
> quite
> > the contrary. Mike then introduced a long quote from Dickens about how
> the
> > psychological nature of people is immutable and fixed, and when placed in
> > revolutionary conditions it will always act more or less the same:
> > barbarously and bloodily.
> >
> > On the contrary! I think that the bloodlessness of the South Korean
> > revolution is the rule, not the exception. When a tiny minority tries to
> > cow the vast majority, they use terror, but when the vast majority at
> last
> > turns on their tormentors and turns them out, violence is largely beside
> > the point. Historically, the bloodshed of the French Revolution WASN'T
> > mostly Parisian. Yes, there were thousands of executions in Paris, mostly
> > because the bourgeoisie had little to offer the working masses except
> heads
> > on pikes. But the real violence--a little less than half a million
> > people--took place in the Vendee areas, south of Nantes and north of La
> > Rochelle, where the religious wars happened under Henri III and Henri IV.
> > It was ordinary peasants who did the dying on both sides. It happened
> > precisely because Paris had little to offer these people besides
> > rationalistic mumbo-jumbo nobody could really understand.
> >
> > As intellectuals, it's easy to feel irrelevant, and to want to make
> > yourself more relevant by going down in the street and shouting. It
> > alleviates some of the frustration we feel bystanding and handwringing
> and
> > the guilt we feel as the "most dangerous" people that Ulvi spoke of. But
> I
> > think that disasters like the Vendee happen precisely because although
> > revolutionary workers do what they have to do, sometimes revolutionary
> > intellectuals are too busy being revolutionary workers and not doing
> their
> > real jobs. Part of that job is pointing out the real (that is, actual)
> role
> > of violence in a revolutionary transformation. It is mostly potential and
> > not real at all.
> >
> > As Shelley wrote after the terrible massacre at Peterloo:
> >
> > Little fear and less surprise
> > Folded arms and steady eyes
> > Look upon them as they slay
> > Till their rage has died away
> >
> > Then....
> >
> > Rise like lions, after slumbers
> > Shake your chains away like dew
> > In unvanquishable numbers
> > You are many. They are few.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Macquarie University
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 4:33 AM, Tom Richardson <
> > tom.richardson3@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry* Ulvi* - I've got it right this time.
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > On 13 March 2017 at 17:25, Tom Richardson
> > > <tom.richardson3@googlemail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi xmca-ers
> > > > Looks to me like Ulci is on to a hiding to nowhere with his
> > > > conviction that socialist revolution is a necessity.
> > > > Strange to imply that *all *revolutions will *inevitably *result in
> > > > social-human conditions worse that the overthrown ones, when the
> > > > quoted French overturning of society was a bourgeois revolution.
> > > > IMO Ulci adduces evidence that Turkish social conditions are at
> > > > present intolerable.
> > > > A literate debate about speech acts seems a strange displacement of
> > > > her/his original anguished cry for changes that result in greater
> > > > justice for oppressed populations.
> > > > But then I believe that the current capitalist anarchy is
> > > > unconditionally intolerable.
> > > > [No strawpersons please - Stalinism was an brutally disastrously
> > > > dysfunctional anti-social formation.]
> > > >
> > > > Cordialement
> > > > Tom Richardson
> > > > Middlesbrough UK
> > > >
> > > > On 8 March 2017 at 21:32, Ulvi İçil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> If I say
> > > >>
> > > >> don't do it, it is imperative.
> > > >>
> > > >> But if I say,
> > > >>
> > > >> It is not realistic and you do not need it.
> > > >>
> > > >> It is affirmative and even  though negative, it is again
> > > >> affirmative, to demobilize you.
> > > >>
> > > >> What I mean is Revolution.
> > > >>
> > > >> Addressed to a married couple with two children.
> > > >>
> > > >> With 3 thousand Turkish liras in Istanbul in a  rented home of at
> > > >> least
> > > >> 1000 tl for rent.
> > > >>
> > > >> 1 usd = 4 Turkish liras
> > > >>
> > > >> Survival economics.
> > > >>
> > > >> Any prospect?
> > > >>
> > > >> No.
> > > >>
> > > >> That simple.
> > > >>
> > > >> What is socialist revolution?
> > > >>
> > > >> It is neither an intention nor a wish.
> > > >>
> > > >> It is simple necessity.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>