[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
[Xmca-l] Re: The most, the best educated and the most dangerous
- To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <email@example.com>
- Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The most, the best educated and the most dangerous
- From: Ulvi İçil <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 02:03:36 +0200
- Dkim-signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GCh4pukFFi1sziryDeP+9MkxpWfJ1s4XJY+QShwby74=; b=lEykySuq59ncx/5NtdCqZPJNpSN4vOnKgjYxVd6VKcSUoWyh0rdiTlnLPWGDFFzuj0 ksevEkECreAEmOwRpkE8CZxDKcfkIccHA5DvuNp8pEO9zB+Mtp1e52wolIEAMJYqvQVz fwo7HRAcFdHOrM3tLLvgmr9eS4lmnI100XRPwIQA1aPiByRnKxana+IFMT78lmNyPi+Z n8ksHZoKhF+O8g8kc3XM5opD2xekv+WxiGSoxqeNEud0M+GRhKBMPeUHyL0EdvJ0vtvr 1YK1JRsJyg6RwiQzWXCozpbctDMsNY2EaAPSMv/cIa20bZ99GpvRd9zSEV5ZqkC68mOA elRA==
- In-reply-to: <email@example.com>
- List-archive: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/private/xmca-l>
- List-help: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org?subject=help>
- List-id: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l.mailman.ucsd.edu>
- List-post: <mailto:email@example.com>
- List-subscribe: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org?subject=subscribe>
- List-unsubscribe: <https://mailman.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca-l>, <mailto:email@example.com?subject=unsubscribe>
- References: <CABjfC8JojizKnEWO2eWqe7jmUVU==qwCSEUPJ30FyRp0E7VUyA@mail.gmail.com> <1580D77A-1E0B-4181-BDE9-CDC32DBC7AF4@umich.edu> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <CABjfC8Jig00s2yDjFPvgZ=a0b=W7ZLVfGWw=9hHkDM0MsH_+Ag@mail.gmail.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org>
- Reply-to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <email@example.com>
- Sender: <firstname.lastname@example.org>
This extremist communist discourse is not very useful? When Iglesias is an
ex communist in fact.
To label a social democrat a communist.
Can there be any doubt that for instance Tsipras came to power without
cooperating with imperialist centers in Germany, in US? Can this be so?
Impossible, completely impossible.
For instance, in Turkey,we know that some former leftist people from
leftist parties joined this Kurdish Party, became MP and they started to
tour countries where such national struggles have taken place. Britain.
This is also public information.
One former leftist journalist asked this same MP, in a public meeting:
"Isn't it so, when we were visiting MI5?". They visited MI5!
It is unthinkable that all these Iglesias, Tsipras, Kurdish HDP in Turkey,
are not in very close contact with centers in US and Germany, cooperating
with CIA and BND.
Look at Turkish journalist in Germany Can Dündar. He is under the wings of
German BND. And he is a leftist a la Tsipras, a la Iglesias. He is a friend
of Joe Biden, of Gauck.
What is more: These are acting as mediating to liquidate, to limit the
effectiveness of real working class communist movements. That these are all
leftist people is what felicity for imperialism and capitalism. But they
do not drop from sky, they are products of the crisis and managing tools of
capitalism in this crisis.
Interesting is that the best educated the most clever leftist people do not
notice this mechanism. Don't they? I do not believe that they do not
notice, they notice it.
Then? The problem is that these leftist best educated tend absolutely to
ignore this mechanism, and they label it complot theory. Why? While
everyhing is so open before eyes.
Because they do not want revolution. They are so well educated so clever
but they close their eyes to obvious facts, apparent mechanisms. Because
they do not have any idea how capitalism works. What does imperialism for
Turkey, they have no idea. They dream that Erdogan will be replaced by a
Turkish Tsipras and then everyhing will be fine. Like in Spain? In Greece?
They are discontent with Erdogan and would be content with Tsipras. Why?
Because they are middle classes who can do within capitalism. It is for
this reason that revolutions come with the poorest and for the poorest and
least educated. That advanced democracy will result in with more conscious
worker is an illusion. That first democracy should be gained and workers
should pass through the school of bourgeois democracy is a mistake.
Politically most advanced worker can be least educated and best educated
can be politcally an absolute ignorant. Advantage and disadvantage of
This is quite improved mechanism to control leftist movements, communist
movements, and they have accumulated great experience in this business.
There is more. You can read Ramonet's conversations with Fidel. But before
I personally believe, the process in Spain was a prelude to Gorbachev. They
tried and succeeded in Spain, then they thought it can be applied in USSR.
They made Gonzalez a close friend of Gorbachev. And I think it was Gonzalez
who gained Gorbachev to imperialist circles. Gonzalez approached to
Gorbachev. It was in fact US.
And Fidel says that when on the phone Gorbachev spoke of Gonzalez very
enthusiasthically and said that he is a socialist, he was surprised because
he knew very well that Gonzalez was not a socialist.
This mechanism is a political pressure mechanism on communist parties and
They sent Gorbachev to Fidel in 1990, to check him, and they understood
that Fidel will not surrender.
Then, Gonzalez approached Fidel, proposed to send advisors, saying that you
will die from hunger.
It is incredible.
Gorbachev declared that he cancelled all trade with Cuba in a press
conference in the presence of George Baker, then US Secr for foreign
affairs, which meant that if you do not surrender, then, comes the second
blockade, you will die from hunger, from lack of medicine etc. It is
incredibly inhuman, unethical. He did this to Cuba to destroy Cuba.
And anybody who lived on earth should watch this. The date is 26 th July
If we were to wake up tomorrow or any other day to
the news that there had been a large-scale civil war in the USSR, and even
if we were to wake up and learn that the USSR has disintegrated--something
that we hope never happens--even under those circumstances, Cuba and the
Cuban Revolution would continue struggling and resisting. [rhythmic
clapping] Cuba and the Cuban Revolution would resist. I say this
knowingly. I say this calmly and serenely, and with all the control in the
world. It is time to speak clearly to the imperialists and to the entire
Can this man be took over? No. Can they excuse him? No. It is for this
reason "He is a dictator"
Down with dictators but not of Pinochet type!
What happened next is that in all international meetings all leftist
politicians exerted an immense
pressure on him, that socialism was dead, that they should pass to capitalism.
Finally, they told him even: Please be like Nicaragua at least.
In 2009, Spanish secret service used a man to develop friendship
relations with some innocent
Cuban very high ranking officials. At the background, there was CIA of
course, all information
passing to this latter.
Operation noticed by Raul, they failed and those officials were
expelled but not punished since
they were really innocent. But you know hell is paved by good will.
US knows very well that they
can not take Cuba by war, only way an extermination, like indians after Colomb.
That's why Fidel said: Nobody can destroy this revolution but we can
destroy with our own mistakes.
I nowadays work on ethical education and I notice that education in
capitalist countries almost eliminated it.
Because this obstructs working of the system.
Whereas in Cuba it is the foundation, it is most primary, science and
technic knowledge not neglected but
ethical education is the most important.
Cooperation instead of competition.
Alturism instead of egoism.
It is interesting that he, Fidel says capitalist societies are
incapable of developing (positive) values.
It is very interesting that below Concept of Revolution is intensely
I think that best education is first of all ethical education.
Otherwise, capitalism creates its
own conscious or unconscious servants. Ethical education is cancelled
because it forces men to an account
with capitalism, its existence would mean create anti capitalists in
Revolution means to have a sense of history; it is changing everything
that must be changed; it is full equality and freedom; it is being treated and
treating others like human beings; it is achieving emancipation by ourselves
and through our own efforts; it is challenging powerful dominant forces from
within and without the social and national milieu; it is defending the values
in which we believe at the cost of any sacrifice; it is modesty, selflessness,
altruism, solidarity and heroism; it is fighting with courage, intelligence and
realism; it is never lying or violating ethical principles; it is a profound
conviction that there is no power in the world that can crush the power of
truth and ideas. Revolution means unity; it is independence, it is fighting for
our dreams of justice for Cuba and for the world, which is the foundation of
our patriotism, our socialism and our internationalism.
On 8 March 2017 at 00:34, Alfredo Jornet Gil <email@example.com> wrote:
> Thanks for detailed account, Ulvi, in particular of the Spanish recent
> history and current situation (by the way, similar to Solana's case has
> been the case of the most recent NATO leader, former Norwegian socialist
> prime minister...).
> Interesting that you include Iglesias among the 'dangerous.' He tends to
> be pictured by the right and the centre as a sort of extremist communist,
> with the name of 'Cuba' often being brought about when critiquing Iglesias'
> statements and positions (as in 'this is not Cuba, Mr Iglesias'). What I
> personally do not like about the Podemos phenomenon is that it begun from a
> real movement in the streets, but as it moved into the political system,
> the street movement begun to recede into the voting role, to the point that
> everything seemed to be left for next elections once more...
> From: firstname.lastname@example.org <email@example.com>
> on behalf of Ulvi İçil <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> Sent: 07 March 2017 22:53
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The most, the best educated and the most dangerous
> Exactly, Aznar used the planes provided to him for his election campaign by
> Cuban-American fascist mafia in Miami and he provoked EU against Cuba
> around 2002 for a stance close to that of US. Cuba stood firm, very firm. *
> But what is more important in my opinion is the following: During exit from
> Franko, CIA (and this is public information, there are many books on this)
> parachuted Felipe Gonzalez on top of PSOE in Spain for a smooth transition
> in fear of communists. The main work was done by Willy Brandt and Socialist
> International and SPD together with CIA. But there was no need for fear,
> Carillo gave up resisting for a republic and admitted the king, he was
> persuaded, this is a complete CIA political operation. Imagine this
> trahison. Because, Spanish workers fought for a republic between 1936 and
> 1939. CPS adopted itself to the bourgeois democracy.
> Not only Aznar etc are very dangerous but Gonzalez and today Iglesias,
> Tsipras too.
> Many years later, after several election rounds, it was being discussed who
> will replace Gonzalez for PSOE presidency. One name was discussed in Spain
> and in party circles. Then, that name was made known to Spanish people that
> he will not be president of PSOE but general secretary of NATO!!!
> He was Javier Solana. And what did he do? He executed German and US plan to
> bomb Yugoslavia.
> Can you imagine instead of PSOE presidency NATO general secretary. Origin:
> It is for this reason that it does not matter too much, Aznar or Gonzalez.
> Everything is turning according to the preservation of the capitalist order
> from a possible revolution.
> In Portugal the same, the same Willy Brandt (that he received money from
> CIA is public information) put Soares in a train named liberty to Lisboa to
> steal the revolution from CPP, from Alvaro Cunhal.
> All these Gonzalez, Solana, Soares, Tsipras, Iglesias, Demirtas (in Turkey)
> are modern Kerenskys.
> It is easy to remember how Kerensky created a bourgeois enthusiasm during
> the February Revolution.
> They are all left. Tsipras and Iglesias are ex communists. This is almost a
> It is for this reason that, October and Lenin - one of the best educated
> and most dangerous in human history this time for capitalism and
> imperialism- were great because this same Kerensky play repeated and
> repeated the whole 20th century to prevent revolutions.
> For instance today in Turkey there is Erdogan and many people in and out of
> the country want that this crisis be overcome by a more acceptable person.
> But I must ask: What do those generations who supported Felipe Gonzalez do
> now and what do they think?
> Taking into account that now their sons and daughters are unemployed in
> couples with several children, and moving to their parents homes because
> there , there is a pension salary and a house bought once upon a time.
> Why Spain , Portugal, Turkey should not be another Cuba and should continue
> with all these capitalist lies?
> The same for Brazil.
> Why to escape from revolutions (Revexits)?
> What can be the future of humanity under capitalism?
> And why best educated and non dangerous other people do not prefer to be on
> the side of working masses , of the poor for a permanent egalitarian
> What prevents them from doing so?
> I think to a great extent prejudices that are cultivated in people's minds.
> I firmly believe that a better world is possible but the billions of poor
> are impotent for an emancipation and they need the best educated on their
> Those best educated should leave the way of life of consumer societies
> imposed on them and they should chose a more cultured one,more human.
> Spanish people are in streets now again. Unless they dream a revolution the
> same will happen again and this time it will be Iglesias who will deceive
> them as it is by Tsipras in Greece.
> It is the greatest merit of revolutionaries like Lenin and Fidel to stop
> this vicious circle and put an end to it.
> Aznar then PSOE then again PP then again PP then Iglesias then PP...= King
> is there , capitalist exploitation is there for 50 years. In 50 years
> Cubans created a paradise in 3rd world standards. per capita doctor per
> capita teacher , the first in the world. lowest infant mortality.
> What we work to do in Turkey is to prevent that the crisis be overcome by
> some social democrat party.
> It is centenary of October.
> We are fed of good deceiving and well educated leftist Kerenskys.
> On 7 March 2017 at 23:10, Alfredo Jornet Gil <email@example.com> wrote:
> > On the thread of 'most educated and the most dangerous', for those who
> > read Spanish, here is an article on a religious school in Madrid, El
> > known for being the school were many figures crucial in Spanish Politics
> > were educated, both during and after Franco, and including former
> > José María Aznar (who, together with Blair and Bush, and against their
> > people's wish, threw us in a violet war in Irak). I can't say about
> > but I remember that by that time almost everybody laughed about Bush'
> > educational level, whereas Aznar has always been an intellectual. They
> > were very dangerous anyway.
> > Here the link (Spanish): http://www.elconfidencial.com/
> > espana/2012-02-19/el-pilar-un-colegio-de-dirigentes_232887/
> > The question of level of education has been raised both in England with
> > respect with Brexit voters, and in the US with respect to Trump's voters,
> > as if the electoral outcomes could be understood only if one consider the
> > voters poorly educated. But does actually knowing MORE or LESS of what is
> > being taught at today's schools affect at all whether you are dangerous
> > not to human well being and rights? Evidence seems to suggest that 'not
> > much'. Perhaps, instead of asking the voter's level of education, we
> > ask the schools' level of humanity. I think education is the question
> > number 1, at all levels, and yet, starting by the salary people seem to
> > willing to pay (to teachers, TA's, etc), it is one of the lowest in the
> > list (if a list of how much people is paid for what they do has anything
> > say about how much a practice is valued).
> > Hope not to be taking the thread off track.
> > Alfredo
> > ________________________________________
> > From: firstname.lastname@example.org <email@example.com>
> > on behalf of firstname.lastname@example.org <email@example.com>
> > Sent: 07 March 2017 21:33
> > To: Edward Wall; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The most, the best educated and the most dangerous
> > Ulvi and others interested in this thread.
> > I would like to recommend an article by Michael Cole and Katherine Brown
> > titled :
> > ‘A Utopian Methodology as a Tool for Cultural and Critical Psychologies :
> > Toward a POSITIVE Critical Theory’.
> > This article (2001) is located in the edited book by Martin Packer and
> > Mark Tappan (Cultural and Critical Perspectives on Human Development).
> > If you google the article a pdf is available. I tried sending the article
> > but do not think it arrived.
> > I found Martin’s *preview* in the introductory pages relevant to Ulvi’s
> > question giving an overview of various cultural psychologies and various
> > critical perspectives.
> > Cole and Brown’s article is a *positive* critical response that refutes
> > Adorno’s negative dialectics..
> > It specifically addresses the public who do not benefit from reading
> > academic texts through the engagement with those who do benefit from
> > reading academic texts. Engaging the *interplay* between and within the
> > traditions of cultural psychologies AND critical psychologies.
> > Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> > From: Edward Wall
> > Sent: March 6, 2017 9:20 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: The most, the best educated and the most dangerous
> > Ulvi
> > I have thought about your question and read what others have
> > Here are some thoughts
> > In most societies a purpose of education is to inculcate societal
> > norms and. hence, in is not surprising that some of the better exemplars
> > are those who place themselves on the side of the dominant class.
> > those that often rise those critical decision points you mention are not
> > necessarily the best educated. They are, what one might term, well
> > educated. That is, they go to the ‘right’ schools, know the ‘right’
> > [people, wear the ‘right’ clothes, eat the ‘right’ food. They often
> > display, as Detienne and Vernant put it, "mental attitudes and
> > behavior which combine flair, wisdom, forethought, subtlety of mind,
> > deception, resourcefulness, vigilance, opportunism, various skills, and
> > experience acquired over the years. That is, they display what the Greeks
> > termed metis or cunning; Odysseys being the exemplar.
> > Metis, I happen to think (from the viewpoint of a teacher), is a very
> > interesting and troubling trait.
> > Ed
> > > On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:41 PM, Ulvi İçil <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, given that education is a class issue in capitalist society, any
> > > society,
> > > that the best most educated are placing themselves en masse on the side
> > of
> > > the dominant class
> > >
> > > can we think that the most "educated" and also the "best" educated are
> > > at the same time the most dangerous people for the humanity
> > >
> > > because they are located at the most critical decision-making points
> > > of a social order.
> > >
> > > Well, this can be a really trivial issue but since I could not meet it
> > in
> > > my country's intellectual life,communist and non communist, I needed to
> > ask
> > > it for world experience.
> > >
> > > It seems that the best educated seem to be en masse the most dangerous
> > ones
> > > to initiate wars etc whereas the least educated formally but the best
> > > self-educated via working class instititutions seem to be the most
> > > emancipatory and in fact best educated people in the real sense of the
> > > world (e.g. José Marti)
> > >
> > > Erdogan is obviously not the most educated in my country, Turkey, nor
> > > Hitler nor Bush.
> > >
> > > But Obama, Clinton, Hollande, Javier Solana (who destroyed Yugoslavia
> > with
> > > Nato bombing) Merkel were and all well educated...and quite dangerous.
> > >
> > > I was really surprised to the self- gathered conscience of one of my
> > > friends when he stated that Hillary Clinton was a very dangerous woman.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Ulvi