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[Xmca-l] Re: identity expressed or formed by action?



Michael, 
What resonates are these three phrases
*definite form of activity
*definite form of expressing their life,
*definite mode of life on their part

Leading to personal-ity within historic-ity.

Thanks for your enlightening paper documenting differences at  ‘heart’ and differences at ‘futures-to-come’ consistent with :

Bahktin
Bergson
Husserl
Deleuze
Derrida
Nancy

Philosophers of change –
Engaged with starting from an alternative ontology that articulates the processes of flow and development of ‘community’ and ‘identity’ 
Through
Their historicity and contingency.
The Self understood as inherently Other NOT as its negative
But 
Other as a central aspect of Selfs constitution.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Andy Blunden
Sent: February 15, 2017 7:25 AM
To: Wolff-Michael Roth; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: identity expressed or formed by action?

Thank you Martin, Michael and Michael. It seems I was not on 
the wrong track. I will press the matter further.

Thanks again all,

Andy

------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making 

On 16/02/2017 2:18 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
> Andy, I don't think that there is a drive to identity. I 
> think this view is typical of a constructivist mentalist 
> approach. In my view, Marx was closer to the point, and 
> therefore Vygotsky and Leont'ev who use the category of 
> personality rather than identity. Marx/Engels say 
> something pertinent in the German Ideology:
>
> |p. 5| This mode of production must not be considered 
> simply as being the reproduction of the physical existence 
> of the individuals. Rather it is a definite form of 
> activity of these individuals, a definite form of 
> expressing their life, a definite mode of life on their 
> part. *As* individuals express their life, so they are. 
> What they are, therefore, coincides with their production, 
> both with what they produce and
> ― 32 ―
> *with how they produce*. *Hence what individuals are 
> depends on the material conditions of their production*.
> (This is from vol. 5 of the International Publishers edition)
>
> Michael
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> Applied Cognitive Science
> MacLaurin Building A567
> University of Victoria
> Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth 
> <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
>
> New book: */The Mathematics of Mathematics 
> <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>/*
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Andy Blunden 
> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
>     Thank you for the reference, Michael, but can't you
>     tell me in a sentence or two whether there is any such
>     thing as a drive to express one's self-identity in
>     activity which is prior to the activity in which
>     identity is formed?
>
>     Andy
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>     Andy Blunden
>     http://home.mira.net/~andy <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>     http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>     <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
>     On 16/02/2017 1:46 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth wrote:
>
>         Andy,
>         I have worked out some of the issues in an article
>         available online
>         Roth, W.-M. (2009). Identity and community:
>         Differences at heart and
>         futures-to-come. Éducation et Didactique, 3, 99-118. (
>         http://educationdidactique.revues.org/582
>         <http://educationdidactique.revues.org/582>)
>
>         where "I present a way to realize the
>         Hegel–Marx–Vygotsky–Leont’ev program
>         of understanding the subject of activity and,
>         correlatively, of
>         understanding the (the culture of the) community
>         with which individuals
>         stand in an irreducible, because mutually
>         constitutive relationship"
>
>         Michael
>
>         --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
>         Applied Cognitive Science
>         MacLaurin Building A567
>         University of Victoria
>         Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
>         http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth
>         <http://web.uvic.ca/%7Emroth>
>         <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/
>         <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>>
>
>         New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
>         <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/
>         <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-mathematics-of-mathematics/>>*
>
>         On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 6:17 AM,
>         <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>         <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>             Rob,
>             So, in the way ‘she becomes a pollutant as
>             waste’ can a person become ‘an
>             expressive identity’ as a formation of a
>             particular cultural imaginary?
>
>             Not a ‘pollutant’ or ‘an expressive identity’
>             to start with, but becoming
>             a pollutant or an expressive identity.
>
>             Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
>             From: R.J.S.Parsons
>             Sent: February 15, 2017 3:26 AM
>             To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
>             <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>             Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: identity expressed or
>             formed by action?
>
>             The idea of waste leads me to Mary Douglas's
>             Purity and Danger. (One of
>             the books that made me grow up.) She discusses
>             what dirt is - matter out
>             of place. Then she discusses all sorts of
>             implications. She doesnt'
>             discuss the issue of expression vs formation
>             as such, but much of what
>             she does discuss bears on it. Menstruation
>             comes to mind. In some
>             societies, women having their periods are
>             perceived as dirty, and they
>             are seen as untouchable by men. So the way a
>             woman is treated forms in
>             her the idea that she is a pollutant, or a
>             carrier. She was not one to
>             start with.
>
>             Rob
>
>             On 15/02/2017 10:21, Laure Kloetzer wrote:
>
>                 Dear Andy,
>
>                 Interestingly, I had a very similar
>                 discussion with some colleagues
>                 recently not on identity but on... waste.
>                 The perspective of one of our
>                 students was that investigating what waste
>                 is can be done via interviews,
>                 in order to understand how we decide what
>                 to through away. I was arguing
>                 that waste is not fully defined before
>                 action, but that waste is what we
>                 through away. The action of throwing away
>                 is formative of what count as
>                 "waste".
>                 I thought it might help to step back for
>                 one second from the tricky
>                 question of self-identity and considering
>                 more concrete, everyday
>                 activities before coming back to it...
>                 Best
>                 LK
>
>
>                 2017-02-15 8:30 GMT+01:00 Andy Blunden
>                 <ablunden@mira.net
>                 <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>:
>
>                     I would be interested in any helpful
>                     comments (other than suggestions
>
>             for
>
>                     more books to read) from my xmca
>                     psychologist friends on this problem.
>
>                     In discussion with a friend, who is
>                     very au fait with contemporary
>
>             social
>
>                     philosophy, but knows nothing of CHAT,
>                     suggested to me a number of ideas
>                     intended to be explanatory (rather
>                     than descriptive) of current social
>
>             and
>
>                     political trends. He talks about the
>                     rise of "expressive authenticity"
>                     since the 1970s and "collective action
>                     as a means to express selfhood."
>
>             In
>
>                     response, I questioned whether there
>                     is any such thing as a drive to
>                     *express* one's identity, and that
>                     rather, collective action (and there
>
>             is
>
>                     fundamentally no other kind of action)
>                     in pursuit of needs of all kinds
>                     (spiritual, social and material) is
>                     *formative* of identity.
>
>                     A classic case for analysis is the
>                     well-known observation that nowadays
>                     people purchase (clothes, cars, food,
>                     ...) as a means of expressing
>
>             their
>
>                     identity. I question this, because it
>                     presumes that there is the innate
>                     drive to express one's identity, which
>                     I see no evidence for. I think
>                     people adopt dress styles in much the
>                     same way that people carry flags
>
>             - to
>
>                     promote a movement they think positive
>                     and to gain social acceptance in
>
>             it.
>
>                     Identity-formation is a *result* not a
>                     cause of this.
>
>                     So, am I wrong? Is identity formation
>                     a result or a cause of activity?
>
>                     Andy
>
>
>                     --
>                     ------------------------------------------------------------
>                     Andy Blunden
>                     http://home.mira.net/~andy
>                     <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>                     http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>                     <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
>
>
>
>
>