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[Xmca-l] Re: CoExperiencing as a Philosophy of Practice.

I think that the traditional arrangement of departments and research centres is not in itself problematic. It does require an openness to individual's having diverse CVs and arguments drawing on different traditions. Wilhelm Wundt would hopefully still be able to get a job in a Psychology department.
*Andy Blunden*
On 8/11/2015 1:37 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
And a concurrent albeit perhaps more down-to-earth consideration is how is such a research body administered? Is that why Andy is referring to the arts, particularly?


On 8 November 2015 at 02:33, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:

    From what I can discern, the convergence of units here
    make for an interesting problem.  It seems it would be
    something like "the consciousness of goal formation".


    On 7 November 2015 at 02:04, Andy Blunden
    <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

        and I think there is a dire need for such a
        convergence as well.
        One of the contributing factors to the
        anti-science currents which can lead to great
        medical, political and social problems is
        antipathy to one particular, dominant *style* of
        science, and I think entanglement between science
        and the arts promotes a broader feel for different
        styles of science.
        *Andy Blunden*

        On 7/11/2015 12:15 PM, mike cole wrote:

            Larry, I strongly believe that there is a
            convergence of humanities and
            social/behavioral sciences going on as one
            thread of academic discourse
            congenial to CHAT. A real good location for
            pursuing it is. The Comm dept
            at UCSD, if we add the arts as part off the mix.
            That's my story at least. :-)


            On Friday, November 6, 2015, Larry Purss
            <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:

                I thought I would add the last paragraph
                of Alex Kozulin's review of
                Vasiliyuk's book.

                By choosing the literary model of human
                experiencing, Vasilyuk affirms his
                adherence to the humanistic, rather than
                scientific approach to human
                psychology. His work can also be seen as a
                blueprint for the future
                convergence of humanistic psychology with
                Vygotsky’s cultural-historical
                theory of human development .

                This premonition that some  new
                convergence is on the horizon. The coming
                intersection forming a hybrid character.
                Do others agree that we may be moving in
                the direction of a *literary
                The discussion of White's narrative
                approach [using Bruner's notion of
                scaffolding] may be an example.

                  Vasilyuk's key understanding as
                expressed in his concept of consciousness
                that has two essential aspects [and their
                *stratigraphy* as layered registers of
                depth or height. Each *layer* is a
                *structure* of the smallest molecule as
                unit of consciousness IS a *mental
                image*  A mental image having the
                structure of the two magnetic poles and
                the dynamic of consciousness moving within
                this dynamic *image*  like the
                flow of plasma.  Depth of layers AND
                mental images interact generating

                Vasilyuk's philosophy of practice as 1st
                order word that is originating
                within the liminal spaces on the
                boundaries OF humanistic THEORY and
                cultural historical THEORY of human

                Consciousness as the originating site of
                meaning-GENERATION forming within
                co-experiencing *situations*.  In other
                words situated consciousness as
                working experience.

                This is a fragment but does express a *tone*

                On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:58 PM, Larry
                Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
                <javascript:;>> wrote:

                    Mike, the declaration that cultural
                    mediation [in particular the symbolic
                    level] is a key element can put aside
                    psychoanalysis and psychotherapy
                    and turn to Vygotsky's own way of
                    including this symbolic level of
                    coexperiencing. Listen for the
                    implicit movement marking the felt sense


                    having *fallen away* from a *source*
                    and then finding one's way back to


                    *source* [and in this return entering
                    *deeper* levels.  I am referring to
                    page 62 of Vasiliyuk's article "Prayer
                    Silence, Psychotherapy".

                    Vygotsky is exploring  a *deeper*
                    layer for experiencing suffering. Not a
                    hedonistic flight from suffering, not
                    masochistic consolation, not


                    platitudes [always a silver lining]
                    but a spiritual sublimation of


                    Elevating and deepening into the layer
                    of experiencing the *source* by
                    transforming this suffering by return
                    to the eternal.
                    Vygotsky images his life as *my star*
                    in the heavens *marked* by sorrow.
                    His personal life and his Jewish life
                    *marked* by sorrow. BUT this star


                    IN THE HEAVENS.  So the meaning of
                    suffering [the falling away from the
                    source] is not in fleeing from the
                    suffering but in returning to the
                    *source* [the eternal, the deepest
                    layer of consciousness] . The meaning


                    *found* in the ELEVATION of suffering,
                    elevtion on the wing OF A PRAYER


                    GOD. The transformation of suffering
                    IN GOD.

                    Vygotsky's metaphor is a personal
                    particular  *image* expressing a deeply
                    felt layer of experience. But within
                    the particular unique felt image


                    is a general [not universal] plot
                    [mytheme] that is historically
                    traceable developing  symbolic
                    cultural imaginary.

                    The plot can shift what is *source*
                    [God, sublime, the *self*] and this
                    can be historically traced[including
                    the work of experiencing the


                    true *self* in psychology].

                      Suzanne Kirschner has traced these
                    transformations in this myth from
                    religious origins, transformed within
                    the Romantic movement, and shifting
                    into psychological theories today.

                    The point I am offering is that
                    Vygotsky as Vasilyuk his project was
                    touched by this mytheme. Peirce in his
                    speculative musings, also was


                    into this mytheme.

                    I am not suggesting this plot is
                    fundamental or foundational but the
                    yearning for this plot to be universal
                    envelops and embodies us into this
                    particular myth and is experienced as
                    a deeply felt *truth*. It is only


                    of the *key elements* but it is a
                    significant one of the keys to the
                    philosophy of practice.
                    The shift to secular themes [such as
                    naturalism] does not change the
                    underlying plot structure but does
                    change the images that *have us*.
                    Vygotsky saw his *star* ELEVATED to
                    the heavens that transforms suffering
                    which is the experience existing
                    within a symbolic truth,

                    On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, mike
                    cole <mcole@ucsd.edu
                    <mailto:mcole@ucsd.edu> <javascript:;>>


                        Hi Larry--

                        Thanks for your continuing
                        explication of your reading of
                        aside psychoanalysis and
                        psychotherapy for a moment, I am
                        totally behind
                        the delaration
                        that  *cultural mediation OF
                        experience* which is a KEY
                        ELEMENT", plus
                        co-experiencing as the necessary
                        condition for that cultural mediation.


                        On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:17 PM,
                        Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com

                <javascript:;>> wrote:

                            Vasilyuk is developing the
                            *philosophy of Practice* as a


                            He says in his historical
                            outline of the different
                            *basic foundations*


                            which psychology has relied
                            [from suggestibility to
                            *becoming aware*


                            *emancipation* to reliance on
                            learning  to reliance on
                            experiencing to


                            current reliance on
                            experiencing [as
                            existential/humanistic] which is
                            intersecting with todays
                            reliance on productively
                            producing internal
                            psychological transformations
                            oriented to enriching the
                            meaning of


                            Vasilyuk says the task
                            exploring the changing
                            reliances of psychology

                        as a

                            practice is not to describe
                            the *factual* history of
                            psychology and


                            reliances of psychotherapy but
                            to elicit the logic of history. In


                            words to *listen* to the
                            evolving IMPLICIT plot that
                            gives meaning and
                            direction to the subsequent
                            acts of the development of



                            One of the key elements
                            Vasilyuk identifies is the
                            concept of


                            mediation of experiences*. He
                            Historically cumulative
                            experiencings with standard


                            in various SYMBOLIC FORMS;
                            when a person experiences
                            crises, his
                            consciousness might get
                            connected to these symbolic
                            forms, an so the
                            process of experiencing,
                            without losing its
                            uniqueness, gains ADDITIONAL
                            DEPTH AND PRODUCTIVITY. (page 18).

                            It is this additional depth
                            and productivity as symbolic
                            that Vasilyuk


                            generating within his evolving
                            implicit *plot* oriented to


                            psychology in order to enrich
                            the meaning of being.  This is
                            also the


                            Vasilyuk is relying on in his
                            other article *Prayer,
                            Silence, and
                            Psychotherapy*. This is the
                            living symbol of prayer on the
                            boundary of
                            experiencing and

                            Here is Vygotsky exploring the
                            *depth* of symbolism in his
                            own words:

                            Ophelia's tragedy [a
                            personification] is exactly
                            LIKE a lyrical
                            accompaniment, that towers
                            over the entire play, which is
                            full of the
                            dreadful torment of
                            INEXPRESSIBILITY, of the most
                            profound dark,
                            mysterious, and SACRED
                            melodies that in some
                            incomprehensible and
                            miraculous way REVEAL AND
                            EMBODY what is most exciting,
                            most allusive,


                            touchingly important, what is
                            DEEPEST AND DARKEST, but what
                            is most


                            that is OVERCOME and
                            enlightened, and what IS MOST
                            MYSTICAL in the


                            play. Thus tragedy turns into
                            PRAYER .... as though with an


                            expiatory and PRAYERFUL light,
                            it gives religious
                            illumination to the
                            tragedy." (page 61 of
                            Vasilyuk's article.)

                            Vasiliuk then comments: "No
                            matter how much the devotees
                            of Marxist
                            materialism try to conceal
                            Vygotsky's religiosity from
                            themselves and


                            it is perfectly obvious that
                            THESE words [LP -1st order
                            words]  could


                            have been written by a person
                            with deep personal EXPERIENCE with


                            (page 61).

                            To sum up, I am MARKING [for
                            orientation purposes]  the
                            concept of
                            *cultural mediation OF
                            experience* which is a KEY
                            ELEMENT of


                            psychotherapy AS philosophy of
                            practice. I believe that the same


                            gravity* can be expressed
                            through changing images. The
                            plot of


                            away from* and *returning to*
                            can be expressed in multiple


                            as turning away from God,
                            turning away from the natural


                            away from one's true authentic
                            self, These images are expressing


                            *reliances* but are sharing
                            the same symbolic plot as the
                            mediation of experiencing. The
                            IMPLICIT deepening of
                            coexperience that


                            now emerging in Russia since
                            the 1980's that Vasilyuk is
                            plotting may


                            implicitly enveloped in this
                            same mytheme of falling away
                            from *the


                            and then the return to this

                            The book *The Religious and
                            Romantic Roots of
                            Psychoanalysis* by


                            Kirschner has plotted this
                            particular myth flowing
                            through Western



                            experiencing the meaning of
                            being. She is tracing the
                            roots of the
                            emergence of Freudian
                            psychoanalysis but it is the
                            more general


                            of practice as including this
                            KEY ELEMENT of cultural
                            mediation as
                            deepening coexperiences that I
                            am highlighting.
                            As Vasilyuk says: the task is
                            to LISTEN FOR *the evolving
                            plot that gives meaning and
                            direction to the subsequent
                            acts of the
                            *development* of psychology
                            [including the KEY symbolic
                            element that
                            *deepens* experience beyond
                            the personal existential.



                        It is the dilemma of psychology to
                        deal as a natural science with an
                        object that creates history. Ernst