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[Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans

Hi Niktarios --- The difficulty of separating what LSV wrote from later
interpretations that get read back on to him is pervasive and probably
unavoidable. Even those who read his Russian texts do not agree on

The difficulty is compounded for us non-Russians because of translation
difficulties (to which I have contributed -- see mca article on obuchenie)
but it is also a result of people reading secondary sources and assuming
that the writer's position, even when s/he draws upon LSV, is equivalent to

Scaffolding is one of those innovations that seems to stick around
tenaciously, despite criticism.

I think its great that the perezhivanie discussion has led to issues of
therapy which have much less hold in the US, it seems, than other parts of
the world.. Lois Holtzman's writings on the topic are a clear exception.
For those with this kind of interest, it provides an opening for finding
out who else in xmca land is similarly inclined.


On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Nektarios Alexi <NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au>

> I googled and just found the following abstract
> In his most recent writings Michael White made extensive reference to the
> work of Russian psychologist Lev Vygotsky, taking up several Vygotskian
> concepts (e.g., scaffolding) into a re-visioning of his narrative
> conversations maps. We used observational coding to test White's newly
> formulated scaffolding conversations map against actual process in therapy
> with children, and the current paper is a qualitative report of our
> findings. We found that most speech turns were codable at some level of the
> map, that children responded to therapists' scaffolding, and that
> therapists and children tended to proceed through the steps of the map in
> single-session therapy. These findings demonstrate that White's model of
> therapy is observable and suggest that change occurred at the level of
> language over the session. This study lays the foundation for future
> research regarding potential links between White's process and therapeutic
> outcomes.
> Read More:
> http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jsyt.2010.29.4.74?journalCode=jsyt
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu
> [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of
> Nektarios Alexi [NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:57 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
> Yes Philip I thought it would be from Brunner who got the idea of
> scaffolding but in one of his books he claims that this idea is from
> Vygotsky.
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu
> [xmca-l-bounces+nektarios.alexi=cdu.edu.au@mailman.ucsd.edu] on behalf of
> White, Phillip [Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 November 2015 9:51 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
> as it turns out, Alexi, wikipedia sez influences on michael white (who is
> reported to have died in san diego in 2008) are:
> Influences
> While early influences included those of systems theory and cybernetics
> (Gregory Bateson),[7] White's main work drew on a wide range of sources,
> including literary theory (Jerome Bruner), cultural anthropology (Clifford
> Geertz, Barbara Myerhoff, Victor Turner), non-structuralist psychology
> (William James, Lev Vygotsky) and French critical / post-structuralist
> philosophy (Jacques Derrida, Gilles Deleuze and Michel Foucault).[8]
> so, probably white got the notion of scaffolding from jerome bruner, who
> has promoted the theory or scaffolding.
> phillip
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu
> <xmca-l-bounces+phillip.white=ucdenver.edu@mailman.ucsd.edu> on behalf of
> Nektarios Alexi <NEKTARIOS.ALEXI@cdu.edu.au>
> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2015 4:54 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: 4 experiencing fans
> I have not seen it my self at any of Vygotskys work but Michael White in
> one of his books claims he  uses the idea of scaffolding that is taken from
> Vygotsky's work for psychotherapeutic practice.Thats why I have said that
> it could be that Michael White never read Vygotsky. He might read some
> interpretations of Vygotsky from other scholars but not the original work
> of Vygotksy.
> I remember when I got interviewed for a couple counselling position and
> got asked whom are my favourite writers and said that one is Vygotsky (that
> was 3 years ago) the respond was "oh yes we know Vygotsky, Michael White
> the father of narrative therapy he uses his idea of scaffolding in his
> theories for counseling" since then to be honest I was thinking that
> scaffolding was Vygotksys concept:)


It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
object that creates history. Ernst Boesch