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Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?

To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
From: Antti Rajala <ajrajala@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 01:22:19 +0300
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Hello Greg,

Unfortunately I don’t have a complete translation of the article. I went
through the text paragraph by paragraph (http://translate.google.com/)
using the very helpful highlighting function of the software to bridge gaps
and problems in the translation.

There is, by the way, another recent study published about the case in
English, for those who are interested:

Engeström, Y., Rantavuori, J., & Kerosuo, H. (2013). Expansive learning in
a library : Actions, cycles and deviations from instructional intentions.
Vocations and Learning, 6(1), 81-106.

There are some overlapping themes between the two articles, but the latter
one is not about double stimulation.

Best, Antti



On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Greg Thompson
<greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:

> Antti,
> Do you happen to have a copy of the translation that you made (via Google?)
> of the Engestrom article? Mike sent the French version around and I swear I
> tried, but my French est plus pauvre for making sense of much of it.
>
> As bad as a google translation is, it seems like it would be better than
> what I could muster.
>
> And as Mike said, it is open source, so maybe no harm in sharing?
>
> I am curious to see how the notion of "knotworking" becomes a mediator for
> this community (and precisely how it is present in the minds of the
> individuals - as opposed to being an emergent or distributed understanding
> at the level of the group). Sounds as fascinating as it is hard for me to
> imagine...
>
> And thanks for the thoughtful response.
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Antti Rajala <ajrajala@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Greg,
> >
> > You asked:
> > ”My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals
> alone?
> > Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in
> > amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is
> > aconcept for that that is different from "double stimulation.”
> >
> > I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at the
> individual
> > level but at the collective level as well. Actually, the study of
> Engeström
> > and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email gives a nice
> > example. The study also involves in some respects a similar situation as
> > the one that you described having taken place with the workers in
> Malaysia.
> >
> > According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory
> > intervention taking place in a university library. The library as invited
> > researchers to help them find new forms of work with research groups. A
> > first stimulus emerges in the course of the change laboratory
> intervention,
> > as a member of one of the research groups that the university library is
> > delivering services says that they can find these services in the
> internet
> > without the help of the library. Thus a problem emerges for the
> librarians
> > to collectively produce a service that would be genuinely helpful for the
> > research groups.
> >
> > In solving this problem, they organize their collective action with the
> > help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking (Engeström,
> > Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have introduced in the
> > beginning of the change laboratory. In particular, a new working group, a
> > knot, is formed that starts to work with the emergent problem of
> inventing
> > a useful service.
> >
> > What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino also provide
> > an example of this second stimulus, the concept of knotworking, becoming
> an
> > initial theoretical generalization that is reworked and enriched through
> a
> > process of ascending from abstract to concrete as the intervention
> evolves.
> > Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of knotworking
> > gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of the librarians'
> work
> > at multiple levels of hierarchy.
> >
> > As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis in the
> study
> > is the intersection of several activity systems, the university libarary
> > and the research groups, In terms of agency, one can maybe talk about
> > shared transformative agency in which the subject is not an individual
> but
> > a collective. (More about shared transformative agency, see Virkkunen’s
> > paper in http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43)
> >
> > Best wishes, Antti
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
> >
> > > forgot to send this to XMCA
> > >
> > > -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on 06/06/2013 10:56AM -----
> > > To: ablunden@mira.net
> > > From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
> > > Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > >
> > > True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy.  But that
> > leads
> > > to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
> > >
> > > What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
> > >
> > > I believe that answer has yet to be found
> > > perhaps?
> > >
> > > eric
> > >
> > > -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
> > >  To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > From: Andy Blunden
> > > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > >
> > > Eric,
> > > By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying two
> > > disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the history of
> > > philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of
> > > consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > > > I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis"
> for
> > > > what it is that provides the mediational method.
> > > > What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being
> > observed?
> > > > Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
> > > > Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
> > > > eric
> > > >
> > > > -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
> > > > To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > > > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > >
> > > > Sure, Greg,
> > > > Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
> > > > their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a
> > > > "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double
> > > > stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a
> > > > stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's
> > > > formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a
> > > > word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change
> > > > you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of
> > > > "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure
> and
> > > > has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for
> > > > instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled
> > > > by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental
> > > > method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a
> direct
> > > > stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second
> series
> > > > of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus
> > > > response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
> > > > remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between
> > > > different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit
> > > > between different words of signification, and culture is a human
> > > > production that involves the "generalization" from a world to
> another,
> > > > broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my
> opinion.
> > > > I don't know...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex)
> > > > connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In
> > > > artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a
> > > > psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme)
> > > > instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are established:
> A?X
> > > > and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural
> > > > conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the
> brain
> > > > tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the
> > > > replacement of one connection A?B by two connections: A?X and X?B
> They
> > > > lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the
> > > > artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural
> process
> > > > of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active
> utilization
> > > > of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental
> > > > Method" (this is 1930)
> > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
> > > >
> > > > But already in 1928:
> > > >
> > > > "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child.
> The
> > > > relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
> > > > of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative
> or
> > > > conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and
> > > > B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign,
> > > > instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX
> and
> > > > BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each
> > > > of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
> > > > conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
> > > > connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
> > > > same in 1933-34...
> > > >
> > > > "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
> > > > older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a
> > > > time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together”
> > > > (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of
> > > > meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was
> already
> > > > present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to
> > > > demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now
> our
> > > > task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From
> > > > our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional
> > > > relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And now?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Achilles,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely.
> You
> > > say
> > > > > that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
> > > > "double
> > > > > stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your
> > message.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
> > > > >
> > > > > -greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
> > > double
> > > > > > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with
> another
> > > > way for
> > > > > > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
> > > > consciousness"
> > > > > > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
> > > similarity
> > > > > > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
> > > > forgotten that
> > > > > > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in
> account.
> > > > Double
> > > > > > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new
> point
> > > > of view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> > > > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
> > > > antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> > > > > > > CC:
> > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
> > > > connected
> > > > > > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the
> > > > notion of
> > > > > > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure
> out):
> > > > > > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
> > > different
> > > > > > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -greg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> > >
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Visiting Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
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References:
- Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
  - From: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
- Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
  - From: Antti Rajala <ajrajala@gmail.com>
- Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
  - From: Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>

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