To: ablunden@mira.net
From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
Date: 06/06/2013 10:54AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
of course not. But in the practical application of psychology (which is what LSV was seeking) there is the practice of measuring qualitative change, a"unit of analysis". answering that question with ideological musings of consciousness does nothing practical.
thank you for proving my point
eric
-----Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: -----
To: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Date: 06/06/2013 09:09AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
What on earth are you talking about, Eric?
you are looking for a "substance" called Gestalt "in" consicousness?
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy. But that
> leads to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
> What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
> I believe that answer has yet to be found
> perhaps?
> eric
>
> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> From: Andy Blunden
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>
> Eric,
> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying two
> disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the history of
> philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of
> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
>
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis" for
> > what it is that provides the mediational method.
> > What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being
> observed?
> > Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
> > Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
> > eric
> >
> > -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
> > To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >
> > Sure, Greg,
> > Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
> > their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a
> > "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double
> > stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a
> > stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's
> > formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a
> > word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change
> > you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of
> > "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure and
> > has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for
> > instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled
> > by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental
> > method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a direct
> > stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second series
> > of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus
> > response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
> > remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between
> > different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit
> > between different words of signification, and culture is a human
> > production that involves the "generalization" from a world to another,
> > broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion.
> > I don't know...
> >
> >
> > "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex)
> > connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In
> > artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a
> > psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme)
> > instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are established: A?X
> > and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural
> > conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the brain
> > tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the
> > replacement of one connection A?B by two connections: A?X and X?B They
> > lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the
> > artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural process
> > of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active utilization
> > of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental
> > Method" (this is 1930)
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
> >
> > But already in 1928:
> >
> > "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The
> > relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
> > of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or
> > conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and
> > B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign,
> > instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and
> > BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each
> > of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
> > conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928)
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
> >
> >
> > See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
> > connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
> > same in 1933-34...
> >
> > "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
> > older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a
> > time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together”
> > (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of
> > meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was already
> > present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to
> > demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now our
> > task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From
> > our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional
> > relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
> >
> >
> > And now?
> >
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Achilles,
> > >
> > > Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely.
> You say
> > > that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
> > "double
> > > stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your message.
> > >
> > > If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
> double
> > > > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
> > way for
> > > > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
> > consciousness"
> > > > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
> similarity
> > > > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
> > forgotten that
> > > > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account.
> > Double
> > > > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point
> > of view.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
> > antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> > > > > CC:
> > > > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
> > connected
> > > > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the
> > notion of
> > > > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
> > > > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
> different
> > > > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> > > > >
> > > > > -greg
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > __________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
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*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden