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Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?



Greg,
Your phrase
*which in a sense chooses them*

This *qualia* or process of  *being chosen* is an interpreted as a *type*
or *kind* of mediation.
Now this seems to be an expansion of the concept *mediation* to explain the
*forces* or energies which *possess* not just *I* but *possess US*.
I would like to put this into context with Jussi's paper where he
articulated three *types* or *kinds* of mediation [tools, signs, and social
interaction]

Greg, my question, generated by reading jussi and your reflections on
*mediation* is to ask what all these multiple or poly versions of the
expanded concept of *mediation* have in *general* which can be abstracted
theoretically?
Or is it more useful and practical to stay at the level of *experience*
where mediation is poly or multiple and not monastic?
For example [examples as poly or multi] 1] picking up or putting down a
tool [instrumental]  2] signs as socio-genetic meaning INTERPRETATION, 3]
social interaction which is showing and gesture and may not express verbal
interaction but is communication, and 4]becoming chosen by some force or
energy or process existing as qualia?

Greg, can all these multiple and poly examples be sharing a common qualia?
The qualia of being possessed by some ??? that is not-self?
The experiments with deaf, blind, and mute children used a unit of analysis
of *self-care* which included being possessed by some qualia of not-self.
In this PARTICULAR instance I read *mediation* as fundamentally *social
interaction* which emphasizes showing and demonstration that is being
possessed by some qualia of not-self which is *other* or *alterity*.

This brings in your question of culture as analogy or metaphor or the pivot
and hinge BETWEEN identity and not-identity [what is other than identity]

I apologize for my stream of consciousness or possibly chaining. The
central question of monistic or poly/multi interpretations [including
questions of mediation or medial BETWEENESS as qualia or possession] moves
into the realm of *medial voice* which is neither active or passive,
neither doer or done to, but moving into the concept of play as archetypal
possession which posits a medial *space* of possession.


I will pause, but your question of *agency* [that which *acts*] circling
and turning around notions of voluntary *free acts* in a *positivist*
version of self as contained identity, and the tension with notions of
mediation as possession [a qualia of being participants in play] is the way
I *read* and *interpreted* your reflections [a double movement] of the
topic of agency as the qualia of being moved [e-motion] AS an emergent
mediational qualia.

Christine, I interpret your questions to this chat community as asking
similar questions.

Larry



On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:

> Antti and Achilles,
> Thanks for this. I have a pretty poor understanding of "double
> stimulation", so your suggestions are very helpful.
>
> I think I'm seeing the difference between the Strathern quote and double
> stimulation. Let me see if I can push my point a bit further because what I
> am trying to understand is close to Eric's question about unit of analysis.
> Here I am thinking in terms of individual vs. group level mediation.
>
> Achilles, as you describe it, it seems like double stimulation is primarily
> concerned with individual agency. In the description you give (and perhaps
> Engestrom as well?), mediation happens between a stimulus and a response
> and puts distance (X) between the stimulus and the response such that the
> individual can act in an agentic fashion. This is agency at the level of
> the individual.
>
> So what I'm wondering is if it makes any sense to think about double
> stimulation (and agency) at the level of the group.
>
> As an example, I recently came across work done by Aihwa Ong with factory
> workers in Malaysia. She describes how when factory workers were faced with
> a sort of dilemma of being over-worked or quitting their jobs, they would
> become possessed by spirits and thus unable to work. Here is a mediator at
> the level of culture that appears to be doing important work of solving a
> dilemma (like Buridan's ass, only here the workers are faced with two bad
> choices and they come up with a third and better choice which, in a sense,
> chooses them). [And lets just assume that these factory workers aren't
> "just pretending" but are really experiencing being possessed]. Does that
> count as double stimulation? or is the concept more circumscribed (and
> individualistic) than this?
>
> My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals alone?
> Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in a
> manner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is a
> concept for that that is different from "double stimulation."
>
> Anyway, thanks again for these thoughtful and detailed responses. I do
> appreciate you bearing with my limited understanding of these matters...
>
> Very best,
> greg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sure, Greg,
> > Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of their
> > worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a "stimulus
> > medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double stimulation" is
> > fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a stimulus and our
> > response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's formulations at that
> > time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a word, etc) act also as a
> > stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change you paradigm to the
> proposition
> > that all sign implies any kind of "generalization process" (meaning) that
> > differs in their structure and has a genetic construction (see the
> studies
> > about concepts, for instance), a sign could not be only a second series
> of
> > stimuli ruled by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in
> > "Instrumental method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R
> is
> > a direct stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second
> > series of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus
> > response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
> remain
> > a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between different
> > domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit between
> > different words of signification, and culture is a human production that
> > involves the "generalization" from a world to another, broader, maybe not
> > exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion. I don't know...
> >
> >
> > "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex) connection
> > A→B is established between two stimuli A and B. In artificial,
> mnemotechnic
> > memory of the same impression, by means of a psychological tool X (a knot
> > in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme) instead of the direct connection
> A→B
> > two new ones are established: A→X and X→B Just like the connection A→B
> each
> > of them is a natural conditional reflex process, determined, by the
> > properties of the brain tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental
> > is the fact of the replacement of one connection A→B by two connections:
> > A→X and X→B They lead to the same result, but by a different path. What
> is
> > new is the artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural
> > process of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active
> > utilization of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The
> > Instumental Method" (this is 1930)
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
> >
> > But already in 1928:
> >
> > "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The
> > relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means of a
> > triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or
> > conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and B.
> In
> > case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign, instead of one
> > associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and BX, which bring
> us
> > to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each of these connections AX
> > and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of connection as
> > AB." Vygotsky (1928)
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
> >
> >
> > See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
> > connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
> same
> > in 1933-34...
> >
> > "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In older
> > works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a time to
> cast
> > away stones, and a time to gather stones together” (Ecclesiastes). > We
> > proceeded from the principle of the constancy of meaning, we discounted
> > meaning. But the problem of meaning was already present in the older
> > investigations. Whereas before our task was to demonstrate what “the
> knot”
> > and logical memory have in common, now our task is to demonstrate the
> > difference that exists between them.From our works it follows that the
> sign
> > changes the interfunctional relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
> >
> >
> > And now?
> >
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Achilles,
> > >
> > > Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You
> say
> > > that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
> > "double
> > > stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your message.
> > >
> > > If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
> double
> > > > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
> way
> > for
> > > > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
> consciousness"
> > > > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
> similarity
> > > > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
> forgotten
> > that
> > > > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account.
> > Double
> > > > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point of
> > view.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
> > antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> > > > > CC:
> > > > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
> > connected
> > > > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the notion
> of
> > > > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
> > > > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
> different
> > > > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> > > > >
> > > > > -greg
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > __________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Visiting Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> __________________________________________
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> xmca mailing list
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> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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