[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com> wrote:
> fulcrum seems OK
>
>
Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in relation
to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the prizing of
the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do with a
stick (as a lever or crowbar).
Best,
Huw
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a meaning
> > something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a thing.
> > http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> > Christine
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > > "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой для
> > > отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический момент
> > > коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических структур,
> > > определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > > опорная точка-
> > > literally: a point of support
> > > Bella
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > > >
> > > > Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph from
> > the
> > > > chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
> > > translated
> > > > as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> > > >
> > > > "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins to
> > be a
> > > > doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules begins to
> > be
> > > > determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of the
> > > child's
> > > > relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it is
> hard
> > > to
> > > > evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at
> once.
> > > It
> > > > is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning of a
> > > word)
> > > > from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At that
> > > > critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot for
> > > > severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
> > > > psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
> > reality
> > > is
> > > > radically altered."
> > > >
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In the original paper on play I have not found a special term for
> it,
> > > but
> > > > > in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be a
> > proper
> > > > > term
> > > > > Bella
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yo!!
> > > > > > Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands on
> the
> > > > > Russian
> > > > > > essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
> uses?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > > > anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Beth and Monica,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think that you should see how would you call a knife and two
> > > > glasses
> > > > > > > that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk about a
> > new
> > > > > bridge
> > > > > > > they are planning to build.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> > holders"
> > > > or
> > > > > > > something else?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because they
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > > CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> conversation.
> > > In
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically. In
> > > > > metaphor,
> > > > > > > you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> > concept,
> > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > calling it a different name.
> > > > > > > "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you, imagine
> > what
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > > > > possibilities!
> > > > > > > But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> > playing
> > > a
> > > > > > > version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> > pillow
> > > is
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot - a
> > > holder)
> > > > to
> > > > > > > play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the place
> of
> > > > images
> > > > > > > and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> > meaning
> > > > > > "ABOUT"
> > > > > > > these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > > > > > > "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning is
> > > > "hinged"
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the object.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ana
> > > > > > > ____________________________________
> > > > > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > > > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > > > > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > > > > > Chestnut Hill College
> > > > > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > > > shaneam@chc.edu
> > > > > > > Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish the
> > > stick
> > > > > is
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think is a
> > > better
> > > > > > > > translation??
> > > > > > > > (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier was
> > > chosen
> > > > > -- )
> > > > > > > > THank you for the help,
> > > > > > > > Beth
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > School of Education
> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > >
> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca