Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Andy, I was wondering if Dewey's exploration of *rhythm* and *recurrence*
is exploring similar themes to catharis, reworking, return, and
recollection?
On page 32 of the Tom Leddy article [Dewey's Aesthetics] Leddy is
summarizing Dewey's section of his book on the topic *Organization of
Energies*  For Dewey, the energies of the subject's experience develops
CUMULATIVELY towards fulfillment of impulsions. To fully understand this
energy we MUST understand the role of rhythm. Since rhythm is a matter of
PERCEPTION, not of mere regularity, it INCLUDES what is incorporated by the
self [perezhivanie]

For Dewey both spatial and temporal existence HAVE rhythm. Perception of
rhythm in art is as essential as rhythm in music Rythm is a RESULT of
bringing about a complete and CONSUMMATORY EXPERIENCE.

This concept *consummatory experience* seems central to Dewey's
understanding of aesthetic [as intensifying] experience. For Dewey rhythm
is not literal RECURRENCE [recollecting, reworking, recall, return] which
is a mechanical *tick-tock theory*
Constant VARIATION is essential to rhythm, as is ORDER provided there is
movement and energy TOWARD CONSUMMATION. Although rhythm requires
recurrence, recurrence is not the same as literal repetition, as it
INVOLVES [revolves??] relationships that BOTH sum up [summarize] and ALSO
carry forward. These relationships give the parts individuality and
differentiation and CONNECT the parts to the whole situation or
circumstances

I will let others link this notion of *recurrence* and *rhythm* to
questions of catharsis and getting STUCK in literal repetitions. I thought
it may offer an opening towards greater clarity.

Larry

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I think that the concept of "perezhivanie" as used by Vygotsky (and "an
> experience" as used by Dewey as it happens).
> has 5 different characteristics. The idea (1) that it is an active
> relation between the person and their social situation, *and* (2) an
> emotionally charged event which entails *all* aspects of the person (not
> just emotion), are two characteristics, but neither are alone sufficient.
> For example, almost everything that can be said about the psyche is an
> active relation between the person and their social situation. That is
> simply to do with the ontology of the Goethean/Marxist/Hegelian approach to
> human beings.
>
> I believe (3) it is also essential that "perezhivanie" is a discrete
> entity, not a continuous substance, which may be implied by the use of
> words like "experience" or "lived experience" etc., which would reconcile
> the concept to empiricism. These are two misunderstandings which led Dewey
> to later regret his choice of word.
>
> (4), that perezhivanie is a "unit", that is, a germ-cell, unit of analysis
> etc., which goes to the place of the concept in the entire theory of which
> it is part, and the character of that theory. (5), that it is underpinned
> by a conception of mediated action, otherwise confusion arises from
> comments like "interpretation" of the situation, which in fact led Lydia
> Bozhovich, wrongly in my opinion, to accuse Vygostsky of "intellectualism."
>
> A putative sixth characteristic, namely, that catharsis is necessary for
> perezhivanija to function in development, is *not* to be found in Vygotsky
> or Dewey, but originates from Freud's teacher, Jakob Bleuer, the inventor
> of the talking cure. (Its remote origin in Aristotle is in my view
> immaterial). Thanks to Natalia Gajudamaschko for assistance with that one.)
> Another "non-characteristic" for which I thanks Bella Kotik-Friedgut for
> confirming my opinion: perezhivanie may be positively exciting adventure as
> well as negatively challenging trauma - inspirational, if you  like. Dot
> Robbin's etymological explanations help us to grasp the depth of the word
> to the Russian ear, connotations which are more or less absent for "an
> experience," but don't really materially change the concept itself. Just as
> one does not have to be French to understand the meaning of "sympathique."
>
> Andy
> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> So the distinction makes sense.
>> Do we need tragedy to stop and think (rework, re-collect, re-turn),
>> though?
>>
>> Perhaps we need sharp discontinuities to evoke enough disruption to get
>> emotions activated, to REALLY stop and rethink
>> large swatches of prior.... ugh...... experience.
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Mike, it is this second tradition which Andy's question is addressing.
>>> The
>>> notion of the *tragic soul* and catharis as a particular process of
>>> *reworking* and *recollecting* or *return*. A circling back over
>>> previously
>>> experienced critical disturbances in the organism-environment
>>> relationship.
>>> Andy is asking if THIS process is explored in either Dewey or Vygotsky,
>>> or
>>> is it an extension of their understanding of aesthetic [intense]
>>> experiencing ?
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> >From all of the quotations from Russian, there appear to be two
>>>> divisible "orientations" to the word. One is something like "the unity
>>>> of
>>>> the organism and the environment" that is apparently akin to Dilthey'
>>>> (1833–1911) belief that "human experience (erlebnis, usually >>
>>>> translated
>>>> 'lived experience') ---( From Martin's quotation of Dilthey.)
>>>>
>>>> The second tradition seems to single out intense experiences associated
>>>> with critical disturbances in the oranism-environment relationship in
>>>> either the negative (emphasized by the Doestoevsky in Vasiliuk) or
>>>> positive
>>>> (as emphasized by Bella)
>>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> Is that a reasonable conclusion?
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The only time that I know of that LSV talks about catharsis is in The
>>>>> Psychology of Art, where he does not talk about perezhivanie, at least
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the 1971 MIT translation; but according to Van der Veer, that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> translation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> only includes about half of what's available in Russian.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>> ucsd.edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> On
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:09 PM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
>>>>>
>>>>> Before moving on to Wundt, and Aristotle I wonder if any xmca
>>>>> correspondents could help me with this question?
>>>>>
>>>>> In my collection of quotes at
>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>I was able to
>>>>> line up Dewey's concept of "an experience" with Vygotsky's concept of
>>>>> "perezhivanie" on 5 different "dimensions". But there is one aspect of
>>>>> perezehivanie which I can line up with Freud and Stanislavsky and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> several
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> contemporary commentators such as Ferholt, Kravtsov, Vasilyuk, ..., but
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> can't find it in Dewey and I don't know where to find it in Vygotsky,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> that is:
>>>>>
>>>>> * in order to function in development, perezhivanie must be "recalled"
>>>>> and "worked over" in "catharsis" which is related to what Mike Cole
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> calls
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "prolepsis" or "temporality". Where do I find a clear expression for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> this
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> idea in Vygotsky and is it to be found in Dewey?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry Purss wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike, Andy, Martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike has summarized the thread to this point in the conversation with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> comment:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he
>>>>>> stands for the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between
>>>>>> volkpsychology and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
>>>>>> Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
>>>>>> link it somehow to xmca.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike, as we link up Dilthey, Dewey, and Vygotsky we seem to be linking
>>>>>> up *lived experience* which emphasizes the SUBJECTIVE emotional,
>>>>>> visceral significance of lived experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another central concept is the understanding of *recollection* when
>>>>>> the impact of the situation on the person summons up the entire lived
>>>>>> experience of development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does Aristotle's notion of *phronesis* as the relationship BETWEEN
>>>>>> *character* and *application* also offer another source for linking to
>>>>>> perezhivanie?? My reason for asking is that Gadamer has *recollected*
>>>>>> lived experience as *flourishing* by returning to Aristotle. Aristotle
>>>>>> also was exploring notions of the *moral good* and I want to link this
>>>>>> to page 3 of Andy's notes on perezhivanie. On page 3 Vygotsky uses the
>>>>>> metaphor of
>>>>>> *prism* and *refraction* on the environments role and influence on the
>>>>>> course of development. Vygotsky is suggesting the discipline of
>>>>>> pedology as a genre OUGHT to always be capable of finding the
>>>>>> particular *prism* THROUGH WHICH the influence of the environment of
>>>>>> the environment on the child is REFRACTED. In Vygotsky's own words
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> pedology:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "OUGHT to be able to find the relationship which exists between the
>>>>>> child and its environment, the child's emotional experience
>>>>>> [perezhivanie], in other words how a child BECOMES AWARE of,
>>>>>> INTERPRETS, [and] EMOTIONALLY RELATES to a certain event. This is such
>>>>>> a prism which DETERMINES the role and influence of the environment on
>>>>>> the development of, say, the child's CHARACTER, his psychological
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> development, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy the way you chose to present the multiple shades of meaning of
>>>>>> perezhivanie [TRANSlated as "lived experience"] through gathering
>>>>>> together multiple authors each presenting their particular
>>>>>> understanding of "lived experience" I found helpful in offering a
>>>>>> deepening clarity of perezhivanie. In conjunction with Dewey's
>>>>>> understanding of aesthetic experience as a deepening *intensification*
>>>>>> of lived experience and Dilthey's exploration of lived experience as
>>>>>> *undergoing*, possible new linkings or avenues of conversation open
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Fascinating thread which brings to center stage questions of
>>>>>> subjectivity, intra-subjectivity, inter-subjectivity,
>>>>>> trans-subjectivity and how these various understandings of
>>>>>> subjectivity [and character development] link to perezhivanie. I
>>>>>> appreciate how XMCA is contributing to my personal development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I expect Ivo just sat that dangling issue there on purpose and I was
>>>>>>> also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey.  To me he stands for
>>>>>>> the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between volkpsychology
>>>>>>> and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
>>>>>>> link it somehow to xmca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marvellous quote, Martin. None of these issues were discovered
>>>>>>>> yesterday, it seems.
>>>>>>>> I had forgotten that a couple of years ago I made up a collection of
>>>>>>>> quotes from various writers on "Perezhivanie" here:
>>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.****org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I've just realized I've mistaken Dewey with Dilthey, I
>>>>>>>>>>> wonder why...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps because all of this was in Dilthey too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dilthey (1833-1911) considered human experience (erlebnis, usually
>>>>>>>>> translated 'lived experience') to be concrete and historical,
>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> shaped
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> by the context of the past and by the horizon of the future, and he
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> argued
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that lived experience is the basis for all understanding. Lived
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is a direct, immediate, pre-reflective contact with life, an act of
>>>>>>>>> perceiving in which the person is unified with the object of their
>>>>>>>>> understanding. It is made up not of static cognitive categories but
>>>>>>>>> of meaningful unities which are prior to the separation between
>>>>>>>>> emotion, willing,  with knowing. Lived experience contains within
>>>>>>>>> it the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> temporality
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> of living, and of life itself.
>>>>>>>>> "That which in the stream of time forms a unity in the present
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> has a unitary meaning is the smallest entity which we can designate
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> experience" (Dilthey, Collected Works 7, 194)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The experience does not stand like an object over against its
>>>>>>>>> experiencer, but rather its very existence for me is
>>>>>>>>> undifferentiated
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the whatness which is present for me in it" (Collected Works 7,
>>>>>>>>> 139)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                 ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**
>>>>>>>> --**
>>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/****AndyBlunden<http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________**____________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>
> ______________________________**____________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca