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Re: [xmca] Body expression as sign.
Larry,
It might be timely to consider Wiitgenstein's notion of 'aesthetic' ( as
you have followed Shotter's uses of his work in the past).
A passage in an essay in the Stanford encyclopaedia sruck me quoted below
from:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/
Hagberg, Garry, "Wittgenstein's Aesthetics", *The Stanford Encyclopedia of
Philosophy (Fall 2008 Edition)*, Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <
http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2008/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/>.
The lectures referred to are occaisions where Wittgenstein expanded upon
'aesthetic', as in his writings he rarely did.
"In using language, he says next in the lectures, in understanding each
other—and in mastering a language initially—we do not start with a small
set of words or a single word, but rather from specific occasions and
activities. Our aesthetic engagements are occasions and activities of just
this kind; thus aesthetics, as a field of conceptual inquiry, should start
not from a presumption that the central task is to analyze the determinant
properties that are named by aesthetic predicates, but rather with a
full-blooded consideration of the *activities* of aesthetic life. 1.2
Predicates and Rules
But the adjectival form of many—not all—critical predicates quickly
reinforces the “property-with-name” model, and against this Wittgenstein
places examples from musical and poetical criticism, where we simply call
attention to the rightness of a transition or to the precision or aptness
of an image. And it is here that Wittgenstein reminds us that descriptions
such as “stately”, “pompous”, or “melancholy” (where the latter is said of
a Schubert piece) are like giving the work a face (Shiner 1978), or we
could instead (or in further specification of such descriptions) use
gestures.[2<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/notes.html#2>
] In cases of re-construing a work (e.g. the meter of a poem) so that we
understand its rhythm and structure anew, we make gestures, facial
expressions, and non-descriptive-predicate based remarks, where aesthetic
adjectives play a diminished role or no role at all. And we show our
approval of a tailor's work not by describing the suit, but by wearing it.
Occasions and activities are fundamental, descriptive language secondary."
Christine
On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andy, Vera
> I was not using Peirce's notion of symbol.
> For Peirce the red and blue clyinder represents a barbershop as a symbol.
> This is an ARBITRARY relationship, a sign relationship.
>
> In contrast, I am using Gadamer's notion of symbol [as articulated by Joel
> Weinsheimer.]
> Weinsheimer points out that Gadamer explored how "symbol", which use to
> refer to appearance, reflection,and especially image, has has transformed
> its meaning and become historically equivalent of the meaning of "sign"
>
> Gadamer is questioning the modern instrumental theory of language and the
> sign system of reason. In moden discussions of language the concept of the
> image (eikon) has been replaced by that of the sign (semeion or semainon).
> Gadamer writes,
> "This is not just a terminological change; it expresses an epoch-making
> decision about thught concerning language... Wedged in between image and
> sign, the being of language couldonly be reduced to the level of pure
> sign." [Truth and Method, 413]
>
> Andy, Gadamer is exploring contrasting the relation of words *as*
> signs, and distinguishing the alternative assumption relating words *as*
> images [symbols in Gadamer's tradition].
>
> Derrida, and Eco, likewise assert that an image is not a sign.
> Gadamer asks what are the consequences and implications of this antithesis
> for the philosophy of language?
> For Gadamer a sign is a tool. Conceived *as* a sign [tool] a word is an
> instrument that the SUBJECT employs for its OWN ends.
> Gadamer asks, is it sufficient to think of language *just* or *merely* as a
> MEANS of communication?
> In Weinsheimer's interpretation of Gadamer,
>
> "Gadamer may overemphasize the sameness, coincidence, continuity, and unity
> of the word with what it words - that is, if he stresses the ways in which
> words are like images and symbols - he does so by way of corrective, for
> nobody disputes the arbitrariness of the sign.... it is necessary to
> reexamine the premises of the idealism on which the contrary, semiotic
> thesis are based.... Asserting that there is something of the image in the
> word raises questions about how free from its concrete situation the
> sign-making mind actually is. To phrase this in terms of the AESTHETIC
> context from which Gadamer begins, once the symbol degenerates into sign,
> it can no longer be distinguished from allegory. Understood as sign, the
> symbol is independent of the symbolized, and in that respect allegorical.
>
>
> Andy, 'm not in a positon to have a strong opinion on these matters, but it
> does have some relevance to Vygotsky's notion of *aesthetic reaction* which
> Zinchenko was discussing.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Vera John-Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Andy and Larry,
> > I was just going to write a very similar note to Andy's. I believe that
> the
> > Peircian distinctions are very widely accepted,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 9:23 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Body expression as sign.
> >
> > Larry are you intending to use these terms as in Peirce's system?
> > For Peirce "sign" is a global category including a wide array of
> > relations between sign, interpretant and object.
> > For Peirce a *symbol* has only a conventional relation to the object for
> > the interpretant. It is an *icon* which relies on resemblance to the
> > object, and an *index* on a material connection. But there are other
> > theories of semiotics I guess.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/us/peirce2.htm*
> >
> > *Larry Purss wrote:
> > > Joseph, Jack, Rod and Christine
> > >
> > > I would like to explore the topic of *body expression AS signs* [the
> > topic
> > > of the thread]
> > >
> > > The term *signs* and how it links to two other terms *gesture* and
> > *symbols*
> > >
> > > This is not to put in question the focus of this thread to open up and
> > > explore questions of *energy* *movement* *emotion* and *attunement*.
> The
> > > overall general term *expression* and how expression is an *aesthetic
> > > REACTION* [Vygotsky's term] or an *aesthetic RESPONSE* [Gadamer's term]
> > > I seems to be central to our understanding bodily expression
> > >
> > > Within this general notion of expression my question is if the
> following
> > > statements are equivalent, different, or ambivalent?
> > > * Body expression AS gesture
> > > * Body expression AS sign
> > > * Body expression as symbol
> > >
> > > My understanding of the relation of *signs* to what they signify is
> that
> > > the relation is ESSENTIALLY arbitrary. One sign can replace another
> sign
> > > and either sign can equally represent the signified.
> > >
> > > Symbols, by contrast have a relation of RESEMBLANCE to the signified.
> We
> > > cannot merely transfer one symbol to be replaced by another symbol
> > > without this change radically changing the meaning.
> > >
> > > Both signs and symbols are implicated in conceptual understanding.
> > >
> > > Body expression as *gesture* moves into the realm of *showing* and
> > > *perceiving* ACTUAL physical bodily movement. Some traditions assume
> this
> > > level of bodily expression is pre-conceptual. However other traditions
> > > asumme bodily gesture is expressing cultural-historical
> conventionalized
> > > movements.
> > >
> > > My question is: When we are exploring aesthetic REACTION or aesthetic
> > > RESPONSE to bodily *expression* [as a general term] are we
> > *understanding*
> > > this bodily expression at the level of gesture, symbol, or sign
> > > expressions? Do the adjectives used to modify *expression* change the
> > > meaning of our understanding of expression as a general term?
> > >
> > > Larry
> > > On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Joseph Gilbert
> > <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Let us remember that spoken-word language is composed of sounds made
> by
> > >> the body, sounds that issue forth as expressions of emotions and that
> > cause
> > >> hearers bodies to assume patterns of motion analogous to those in the
> > >> generators of the sounds. Thereby motion and emotion are transferred
> > from
> > >> originators to receivers. It is that sense of emotion, that we
> > experience
> > >> by our spoken words, that provides us with a sense of meaning. Our own
> > >> emotion is the bottom line of our sense of meaning. Things have
> meaning
> > >> only in as much, and in how, they affect us. And our emotions are the
> > way
> > >> we experience effects. Our words deal in the currency of meaning - our
> > >> emotions - , and they refer to things. Because of this dual nature,
> > words
> > -
> > >> the very things that identify things - inform us of the meaning of our
> > >> world simply by affecting our emotions with their sounds. Since we are
> > >> normally preoccupied with the referential aspect of words, it is
> > >> subconsciously that we experience their emotional effects.
> > >>
> > >> Joseph Gilbert
> > >> ______________________________**____________
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> > >>
> > >>
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> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608461459/
> >
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