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Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD



I agree, Larry, that this is a huge developmental question, 
and a very important one. I do think that one part of that 
process, that's going on right now, is that many of the people 
who lack those skills, and appear to have from a very early 
age, are getting a diagnosis that 1. entitles them to certain 
services and protections, and 2. attributes the problem 
entirely to their own characteristics, thus occluding the 
social context. I suspect these factors may be feeding back 
into each other - people seek out the protection of the 
diagnosis, but the cost is ignoring much of the broader social 
context that makes such institutional protections necessary in 
the first place. 

Elizabeth Fein, MA
Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago 
Department of Comparative Human Development
Psychology Fellow, SociAbility 
(773)860-7275


>
>Asking if autism or ADD/ADHD may be partially explained by 
David's query I
>believe is an aspect of a much larger question that David is 
asking.  I
>would frame the question as *ways of life* that are demanding 
facility with
>*decentered* discourses and the multiple and very complex 
*ways* that
>persons who are not skillful in this decentering *capacity* 
are located in
>our society.  An example I would offer is a person who will 
*take
>direction* from others and work hard but does not have the 
*capability* to
>*indepently* ASK for work and therefore becomes homeless.
>
>I suspect one factor in this person being homeless is the 
lack of *skill*
>in participating in *decentered* ways of life.
>This question may be a *big* question. When a person 
developmentally [for
>whatever reason] struggles to flexibly decenter [and is 
perceived as
>awkward, immature, lazy, etc.] that person is *at risk* for 
becoming
>vulnerable and isolated from meaningful *ways* of life.
>
>Larry
>
>On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner 
<dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
>> My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and 
is being
>> treated/educated under that label), and my father had 
processing
>> difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a 
responsive,
>> turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a  
successful
>> innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself, 
who also has
>> processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps 
me understand
>> how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and 
culturally
>> reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or 
does not
>> have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe. 
One loses many
>> social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to 
society's
>> current demarcation point work very hard to simulate 
normative
>> functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral 
spectrum
>> between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled. 
My son's
>> degree of autism precludes him from participating 
effectively in
>> self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history, 
society's
>> demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater 
numbers of
>> individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is 
that the recent
>> uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted 
for entirely in
>> sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is 
going on.
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>  On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments 
aside (which are
>> way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to 
a full
>> discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum 
of two
>> (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-
historical
>> perspective to support the suggestion that 
social/cultural/historical
>> conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of 
autistic
>> spectrum disorders:
>> 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum 
- widely
>> understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including 
the role of
>> learning as leading development); and
>> 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of 
being
>> 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture 
in context,
>> that is (with some
>> imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits 
may have had
>> value to a particular group, but in western society, these 
traits become
>> redundant.
>>
>> My understanding of autism is limited, but these points 
describe my
>> understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive 
amount of
>> time studying.
>> Cheers,
>> Deborah
>>
>>
>> Deborah Rockstroh
>> Southern Cross University
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
>> Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a 
nice job of
>> noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and 
real attention
>> to people's differential makeups.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-
autism-wars.html?_r
>> =1&p
>> artner=rss&emc=rss>
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>
>> > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from 
being
>> > documented. p
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
>> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>> >
>> > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the 
list, where I
>> > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking 
into CHAT (at
>> > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the 
subject) as a way of
>>
>> > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions 
might be
>> > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions. 
Peter, I am
>> > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my 
question out
>>
>> > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
>> > group: Do you think there is any possibility that 
contemporary
>> > conditions
>> might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of 
autism spectrum
>> disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in 
particular of
>> factors such as the individualization of society, the need 
to adhere to
>> social norms that are less explicit/structured and more 
based on
>> flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place, 
and the
>> increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of 
socialization).
>> So,for example, the two observations David made (that 
people may be
>> losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning 
at the same
>> time that there is a heightened demand for facility with 
decentered
>> discourses) might be causing more people not only to be 
DIAGNOSED, but
>> also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward 
and
>> excessively "rote".
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Elizabeth Fein, MA
>> > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of 
Comparative Human
>>
>> > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
>> > (773)860-7275
>> >
>> >
>> > ---- Original message ----
>> >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
>> > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
>> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>
>> >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The 
increase in
>> > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder, 
you buy into
>>
>> > the deficit view of mental health difference) is 
generally attributed
>> > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued 
research into
>> > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as 
someone on
>> > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my 
family). I've had
>> > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more 
in press and
>> > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to 
write them). I'd
>> > be happy to share with others any of the following, if 
you write me
>> > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but 
couldn't make the
>> > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
>> >>
>> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
>> > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of 
neuroatypicality,
>> extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 
113,
>> 1701-1732.
>> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky, 
"defectology,"
>> > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader 
cultural
>> stream.
>> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
>> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has 
his
>> > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to 
the question
>>
>> > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, 
Culture and
>> > Social Interaction
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>
>> >> Larry,
>> >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism 
Spectrum
>> > Disorder"
>> >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
>> >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a 
wonderful
>> > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by 
ourselves?)].
>> >> -greg
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
>> > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
>> >>>
>> >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism 
[page
>> > 3] when he
>> >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and 
a
>> > lack of
>> >>> differentiation of viewponts.  He gives the example of 
the
>> > beginning
>> >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures 
were
>> >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*, 
so to
>> > say,
>> >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second 
example
>> > Piaget gives
>> >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the 
shoes of
>> > the other
>> >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
>> > convince the other *on his own ground*.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
>> > continuing
>> >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if 
this
>> > ability
>> >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can 
be
>> > viewed as an
>> >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain 
dialogical
>> > *ways* of
>> >>> expression.
>> >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in 
our
>> > current
>> >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming 
more
>> >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all 
residences
>> > in New York
>> >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be  having 
the
>> > unintended
>> >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
>> > *social* reasoning.
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living 
alone
>> > requires
>> >>> more
>> >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
>> > novel
>> >>> discursive situations.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just wondering.
>> >>>
>> >>> Larry
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
>> >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mike:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet 
Archive
>> > is missing
>> >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
>> > complete in places.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
>> > translation. The
>> >>>> boxes
>> >>> are
>> >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
>> > doing T&S in
>> >>> Korean.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I 
was
>> > trying to
>> >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
>> > myself.
>> >>>> Besides that,
>> >>> the
>> >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
>> > favorable)
>> >>> references
>> >>>> in HDHMF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
>> > indebted to
>> >>> Volkelt,
>> >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis 
into
>> > units and
>> >>> analysis
>> >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
>> > idea that
>> >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
>> > and
>> >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
>> > it's not
>> >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
>> > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David Kellogg
>> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> 
wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
>> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought 
and
>> > Language
>> >>>> from 1962?
>> >>>> mike
>> >>>> __________________________________________
>> >>>> _____
>> >>>> xmca mailing list
>> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>>>
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>> >>>> _____
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>> >>>>
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of 
Comparative
>> >> Human Cognition Department of
>> > Communication University of California, San Diego
>> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>> >> __________________________________________
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