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Re: [xmca] Zebra Crossing



Thanks for the resources and examples David.

The beauty of Vygotsky's work is that dialectical entities is that  the can
exist holistically without having to resolve the thesis/antithesis dynamic.

Repetition can certainly be filled with NEW  LIFE. Ask any mother.



On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 6:46 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Robert (and Rod):
>
> First of all, here's the Ernica article:
>
> http://www2.unil.ch/slav/ling/recherche/biblio/08LGGPENSEE/Ernica.pdf
>
> Secondly, here's the missing Sapir; if you have the Minick translation, it
> should go JUST at the top of p. 49, after "man reflects reality in a
> generalized way" and before "Virtually any example":
>
> "In the sphere of instinctive consciousness, in which rules perception and
> passion, only infection and contagion is possible, not understanding and
> social contact in the true sense of the word. Edward Sapir has wonderfully
> explained this in his work on the psychology of speech. Elements of
> language,” he says must be connected to an entire group, to a defined class
> of our experience. “The world of our experiences must be enormously
> simplified and generalized before it is possible to make a symbolic
> inventory of all our experiences of things and relations; and this inventory
> is imperative before we can convey ideas. The elements of language, the
> symbols that ticket off experience, must therefore be associated with whole
> groups, delimited classes, of experience rather than with the single
> experiences themselves. Only so is communication possible, for the single
> experience lodges in an individual consciousness and is, strictly speaking,
> incommunicable.
>  To be communicated it needs to be referred to a class which is tacitly
> accepted by the community as an identity.” For this reason Sapir considers
> the value of a word not as a symbol of an isolated perception, but as the
> symbol of a concept."
>
> Thirdly, a thought on "performance" and "acting". It seems to me that the
> distinction is too coarse: it includes variation vs. repetition,
> self-directed repetition vs. other-directed repetition, deliberate
> self-directed repetition vs. inadvertant self-directed repetition.
>
> Everything we say about repetition can also be said about variation: there
> is self-directed variation vs. other-directed variation, deliberate
> self-directed variation vs. inadvertant self-directed repetition (i.e.
> error), etc.
>
> An all of these distinctions apply not only to the actual actions
> themselves but also the imaginary entities we call actors. In order to
> teach English verbs to children in class we do an activity which is called
> "Listen and Do" ("Stand up", "sit down", "sit up"). But sometimes the actual
> actions become performative, e.g. "stand on the ceiling", "sit on a cloud".
>
> The actors, and not simply the actions, are also varied: "I am Andre Kim,
> the clothes designer. You are Jeong Jihyeon, supermodel. Stand! Sit! Oooooh!
> Lovely! (said rather campily to uproarious laughter)".
>
> All of these distinctions are important, and I am always very hesitant to
> assign pedagogical value to one over another. In an elementary school
> classroom, God has a blessing for everything, even for the Czar....
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zebra Crossing
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 9:17 AM
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Your comments on performance v. acting reminded me of my own take on the
> relationships between informing, transforming and performing. I see
> performance as a play between the form of a convention (a script, a musical
> score) and the interpretation of the performer - the communication which
> becomes possible when performer and audience share a common set of
> conventions (when the audience knows the play or the piece of music) is much
> greater and much more subtle than when there is no shared form to play with.
> For me it is a shame that the etymology of 'perform' is not from per-form
> (playing THROUGH a form) but things are not always neat!
>
> All the best,
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Robert Lake
> Sent: 16 November 2010 14:30
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zebra Crossing
>
> David,
> I am very much taken with your comments on imitation and
> intra-revolu-turn-ation in the  Zeta Pi Delta because in my own schema it
> connects with Newman and  Holtzman's view of imitation. _We take great
> pains
> in our own psychological, cultural and political work......to distinguish
> performing from its dialectical opposite, acting." (1993, p. 153) . They go
> on to describe acting as "representational- it is copying, mimicking,
> repeating without being ahead of one's self.....performing is the varied
> and
> creative imitation of revolutionary activity, i.e. making history, making
> meaning, to reinitiate a learning (cognitive, emotional, cultural) that
> leads to development).
>
> I am reminded of Bob Dylan's early "performances" of Woody Guthrie. He
> sounded like him, dressed like him and he even imitated an Okie accent in
> his early work as a singer/songwriter yet all the while he was developing
> "ahead of himself". Or look at Vera John-Steiner's work in CHAT,as it
> evolved from translating LSV, to her work in cognitive pluralism and
> creative collaboration.
>
> Where can I get a copy of Mauricio Ernica's article?
>
> It is also amazing to me to see the ways that Maxine Greene's work in
> aesthetic education  intersects with "Psychology of Art".
>
>
> Where can we get the passage on Sapir in Chapter One ? Did you translate
> it?
>
> Thanks again for the Truffles David!
>
> RL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 6:57 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I have just read a remarkable article on "Thinking and Speech" and the
> > "Psychology of Art" by Mauricio Ernica in Brazil. He argues that there
> are
> > three clear links between the two:
> >
> > a) The social formation of consciousness ("art as the social tool of
> > emotion")
> > b) The distinction between higher and lower emotions ("the aesthetic
> > response")
> > c) The mutual annihilation of content and form (catharsis)
> >
> > He points out that only a) is really EXPLICIT in T&S. But he argues that
> b)
> > is implicit in the idea, most clearly expressed in the passage on Sapir
> in
> > Chapter One which is unfortunately missing from all the English
> > translations, on how the emotional, or affective volitional, side of word
> > meaning is what really gets transformed when words develop into concepts.
> > And c) is implicit in the idea that lexicogrammatical subjects,
> predicates,
> > and even categories like number and gender are quite different from the
> > psychological subjects, predicates, and other semantic categories of
> inner
> > speech.
> >
> > I think all that is really true, and it came a shock to me. I've spent
> the
> > last month or so rootling around in Psychology of Art for the truffles of
> > Thinking and Speech. And here is Mauricio Ernica doing exactly the
> opposite,
> > rummaging around in the later work and coming up with some real jewels of
> > the earlier one.
> >
> > But one thing that is simply NOT in the Psychology of Art in any implicit
> > form at all is the zone of proximal development. I think Andy is right to
> > question whether the Zoped applies to fully developed humans in exactly
> the
> > same way it does to children who are in the process of catastrophic,
> > revolutionary ontogenetic developments every three years or four years or
> > so.
> >
> > But for precisely that reason we have to question whether withdrawal of
> > support is the crucial, essential, typical moment of development!
> Vygotsky
> > says that IMITATION provides the actual content of the zone of proximal
> > development--not imitation in a narrow sense, it is true, but intelligent
> > imitation which includes the understanding of the purpose of the action
> and
> > the possiblity of "intra-revolu-turning". It's very hard to see how you
> can
> > "imitate" a lack of support or intra-revolu-turn-ate it.
> >
> > Yet this is basically the "scaffolding" interpretation of the ZPD put
> > forward by Bruner (in, among other places, his preface to Thinking and
> > Speech). Sure enough, it is an interpretation which CAN apply to adults
> in
> > almost exactly the same way that it does to children, because it does not
> > distinguish between microgenetic teaching-and-learning and ontogenetic
> > development.
> >
> > In the nineteenth century, the key problem which vexed the first
> ecologists
> > (Haeckl) anthropologists (Levy-Bruhl) and psychologists (Hall) was
> whether
> > ontogeny recapitulates or somehow retraces phylogeny. I think this
> > semi-obsession (definitively rejected by Vygotsky in the very first
> chapter
> > of the History of the Development of the Higher Mental Functions) was
> partly
> > the result of the discovery of evolutionary "stages" in embryological
> > development (e.g. a "plantlike" stage, a "fish" stage, a "rodent"stage,
> and
> > a simian one). The eighth century Tibetans, who were quite familiar with
> the
> > stages of embryological devleopment because of their high rate of death
> in
> > child birth and their custom of dismembering corpses to feed them to
> birds
> > of prey, had already rejected the parallels as being striking but
> ultimately
> > overstated.
> >
> > In the twentieth century, the semi-obsession has been whether or not
> > microgenesis recapitulates the sociogenesis of knowledge; that is,
> whether
> > children have to recreate knowledge through "discovery learning" or
> "project
> > work" that mimicks the way in which the original discoverers were
> thinking.
> > The verdict from Bruner (and also from Bereiter, and many many others) is
> > YES; the ontogenesis of knowledge is simply a fast-forward replay of its
> > sociogenesis. But I think there too we have to say that the parallels
> > are seductive but ultimately grossly overstated, and ultimately founded
> on a
> > lack of faith in the power of language to communicate.
> >
> > Besides, if microgenesis is just the recapitulation of sociogenesis, then
> > what is ontogenesis?
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > PS: I think we should refer to the Zoped as a Zebra Raising, or maybe
> just
> > a Zebra Crossing. But what we really need is a new name for the
> functional
> > method of dual stimulation. The Fumedvastym? Fume Distillation?
> >
> > dk
> >
> > --- On Tue, 11/16/10, Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
> > To: "ablunden@mira.net" <ablunden@mira.net>, "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 16, 2010, 1:43 AM
> >
> >
> > But Mike's ironic point also highlights the fact that our experience
> before
> > birth (and immediately after in most parts of the world and for most of
> > history) has been an undifferentiated 'we' (the Ur we or
> "Primordial-We").
> > While the infant may have no independent experience of being treated as
> an
> > independent person the mother has and this is available to the 'we' one
> too.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Rod
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > Sent: 16 November 2010 00:01
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
> >
> > Ah! Apologies. I hadn't noticed that "Mike's ironic point" was off line.
> > The irony was "Why not just withhold 'support' from birth, Andy?"
> > Andy
> > Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > Before you can "perform who you are not yet," i.e., an independent
> > > person, others have to treat you as an independent person. I take
> > > Mike's ironic point, that /prior to/ that one must have some
> > > opportunity to know how an independent person acts, but so long as you
> > > are treated as someone who need help ...
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > Helen Grimmett (Education) wrote:
> > >> Interesting angle Andy! I suppose it depends on the view of learning
> > >> and development you are taking. I came to the zpd via the work of
> > >> Rogoff and Lave & Wenger so came to view learning as transformation
> > >> of participation in cultural activities. Then I came to Lois
> > >> Holzman's work and take the definition of development as the activity
> > >> of creating who you are by performing who you are not yet. In my
> > >> understanding of these views, learning and development is only
> > >> possible with the support of others, by participating in the
> > >> activities of (and with) others. I have never thought about the
> > >> relevance of the withdrawal of support - I'll have to ponder on that
> > >> for a while to see how (or if) it fits in my schema!
> > >>
> > >> Interested to hear what others think,
> > >> Helen
> > >>
> > >> On 16 November 2010 01:47, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>     Mike, for whatever reason, zoped has never been a concept which
> > >>     figured very largely in my thinking.
> > >>
> > >>     Apart from my interest in understanding social change and
> > >>     zeitgeist my practical interest in Vygotsky's ideas has been in
> > >>     relation to practical activity with mature adults, mostly where
> > >>     the learner is not so much a person, but a group of adults, such
> > >>     as a union branch or suchlike. But I have also developed an
> > >>     interest in disability support.
> > >>
> > >>     In both these cases, it has always seemed to me that it is the
> > >>     withdrawal of support which facilitates development, not the
> > >>     provision of support. Of course, the very act of withdrawal of
> > >>     support is itself assisting the "learner" in making the
> > >>     development. Withdrawing support is a variety of support.
> > >>
> > >>     Does this fit into the general schema of theorising with zoped?
> > >>
> > >>     Andy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     mike cole wrote:
> > >>
> > >>         Armando.
> > >>         It seems to me that people can use any term they like in
> > >>         seeking to index
> > >>         the processes they believe
> > >>         to be indicated by Vygotsky. Proximal in English refers to
> > >>         both time and
> > >>         space. In Spanish also, I believe as in:
> > >>         Hasta la semaina *proxima.*
> > >>
> > >>         I was simply providing an explanation for my coinage.
> > >>
> > >>         mike
> > >>         On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:52 AM, Armando Perez Yera
> > >>         <armandop@uclv.edu.cu <mailto:armandop@uclv.edu.cu>>wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>             Mike:
> > >>             Why we do not work ZPD as zone of potencial development.
> > >>             ZPD as zone of
> > >>             proximal development taste as space dimension, Potencial
> > >>             development taste
> > >>             as time. Also Zone of colective potencial development
> > >>             taste as SSD (Social
> > >>             situation of development) And nbot anly as cognitive
> > >>             proce3ss but as process
> > >>             of development of pertsonality.
> > >>             Only some ideas.
> > >>             Armando
> > >>
> > >>             ________________________________________
> > >>             From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>             [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf
> > >>             Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com
> > >> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
> > >>             Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:23 PM
> > >>             To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
> > >>             Subject: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
> > >>
> > >>             I am answering David's question about "why zoped." I did
> > >>             not include it in
> > >>             my talk because I am uncertain of the audience's national
> > >>             backgrounds and was assuming "mixed but mostly Russian
> > >>             speakers". The talk
> > >>             was supposed to be about 20 minutes long and I was
> > >>             uncertain of the time. And I was also mindful of the fact
> > >>             that on Tuesday
> > >>             following its showing at the Vygotsky readings, I will be
> > >>             discussing the
> > >>             issues raised, and whatever people feel like talk about
> > >>             via skype,
> > >>             sooooooo.
> > >>
> > >>             As many know, when i organize obrazovanie, I like to mix
> > >>             serious stuff with
> > >>             play. Also, I have a long term interest in the the
> > >>             enculturation
> > >>             practices and processes of peoples for whom literacy has
> > >>             not been a central
> > >>             part of enculturation until, perhaps, recent times. And, I
> > >>             enjoy
> > >>             participating in the forms of activity that emerge when
> > >>             zopeds are created
> > >>             as a part of our research and educational practices.
> > >>
> > >>             With that context (add or subtract to taste) the notion of
> > >>             a zoped came
> > >>             from
> > >>             two sources. First of all, it IS easier to say! :-)
> > >>             Secondly, it involves forms of pedagogy -- arranging for
> > >>             the young to
> > >>             acquire valued skills, knowledge, belief, behaviors, etc
> --
> > >>             Third, when it works, it seems like "something happened,"
> > >>             a qualitative
> > >>             field that sometimes can be like flow, sometimes can be
> > >>             triggered by timely juxtapositions, montage-like. And it
> > >>             seems to lead to a
> > >>             more inclusive, more integrated way of relating to the
> > >>             world at least
> > >>             in that setting. Whatever this "something" is, it has a
> > >>             magical quality to
> > >>             it.
> > >>
> > >>             In Liberia when and where I pretended to work once upon a
> > >>             time the most
> > >>             respected, revered, and feared members of the community
> were
> > >>             shamen, a concept referred to in Liberia at the time
> > >>             (across language
> > >>             groups, so far as I could tell) as a Zo, what popular
> > >>             culture refers to
> > >>             as "witch doctors." They were THE teachers. But they
> > >>             worked through magic.
> > >>
> > >>             That about sums up my idea of the zone of proximal
> > >>             development. It requires
> > >>             sage pedagogy and a touch of magic. When those are
> combined,
> > >>             they, of course, constitute a zo-ped.
> > >>
> > >>             I personally recommend spending time in such third spaces.
> > >>             :-))
> > >>             mike
> > >>             __________________________________________
> > >>             _____
> > >>             xmca mailing list
> > >>             xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>             http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
> > >>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
> > >>
> > >>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
> > >>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>         __________________________________________
> > >>         _____
> > >>         xmca mailing list
> > >>         xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>         http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     --
> > >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>     *Andy Blunden*
> > >>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > >> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > >>     Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > >>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> > >>     <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> > >>     MIA: http://www.marxists.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     __________________________________________
> > >>     _____
> > >>     xmca mailing list
> > >>     xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>     http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> > MIA: http://www.marxists.org
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> *Assistant Professor
> Social Foundations of Education
> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> Georgia Southern University
> P. O. Box 8144
> Phone: (912) 478-5125
> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> Statesboro, GA  30460
>
> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
> midwife.*
> *-*John Dewey.
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-- 
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Assistant Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-5125
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
__________________________________________
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