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RE: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped

But Mike's ironic point also highlights the fact that our experience before birth (and immediately after in most parts of the world and for most of history) has been an undifferentiated 'we' (the Ur we or "Primordial-We"). While the infant may have no independent experience of being treated as an independent person the mother has and this is available to the 'we' one too.

All the best,

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: 16 November 2010 00:01
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped

Ah! Apologies. I hadn't noticed that "Mike's ironic point" was off line.
The irony was "Why not just withhold 'support' from birth, Andy?"
Andy
Andy Blunden wrote:
> Before you can "perform who you are not yet," i.e., an independent
> person, others have to treat you as an independent person. I take
> Mike's ironic point, that /prior to/ that one must have some
> opportunity to know how an independent person acts, but so long as you
> are treated as someone who need help ...
>
> Andy
>
> Helen Grimmett (Education) wrote:
>> Interesting angle Andy! I suppose it depends on the view of learning
>> and development you are taking. I came to the zpd via the work of
>> Rogoff and Lave & Wenger so came to view learning as transformation
>> of participation in cultural activities. Then I came to Lois
>> Holzman's work and take the definition of development as the activity
>> of creating who you are by performing who you are not yet. In my
>> understanding of these views, learning and development is only
>> possible with the support of others, by participating in the
>> activities of (and with) others. I have never thought about the
>> relevance of the withdrawal of support - I'll have to ponder on that
>> for a while to see how (or if) it fits in my schema!
>>
>> Interested to hear what others think,
>> Helen
>>
>> On 16 November 2010 01:47, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     Mike, for whatever reason, zoped has never been a concept which
>>     figured very largely in my thinking.
>>
>>     Apart from my interest in understanding social change and
>>     zeitgeist my practical interest in Vygotsky's ideas has been in
>>     relation to practical activity with mature adults, mostly where
>>     the learner is not so much a person, but a group of adults, such
>>     as a union branch or suchlike. But I have also developed an
>>     interest in disability support.
>>
>>     In both these cases, it has always seemed to me that it is the
>>     withdrawal of support which facilitates development, not the
>>     provision of support. Of course, the very act of withdrawal of
>>     support is itself assisting the "learner" in making the
>>     development. Withdrawing support is a variety of support.
>>
>>     Does this fit into the general schema of theorising with zoped?
>>
>>     Andy
>>
>>
>>     mike cole wrote:
>>
>>         Armando.
>>         It seems to me that people can use any term they like in
>>         seeking to index
>>         the processes they believe
>>         to be indicated by Vygotsky. Proximal in English refers to
>>         both time and
>>         space. In Spanish also, I believe as in:
>>         Hasta la semaina *proxima.*
>>
>>         I was simply providing an explanation for my coinage.
>>
>>         mike
>>         On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:52 AM, Armando Perez Yera
>>         <armandop@uclv.edu.cu <mailto:armandop@uclv.edu.cu>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>             Mike:
>>             Why we do not work ZPD as zone of potencial development.
>>             ZPD as zone of
>>             proximal development taste as space dimension, Potencial
>>             development taste
>>             as time. Also Zone of colective potencial development
>>             taste as SSD (Social
>>             situation of development) And nbot anly as cognitive
>>             proce3ss but as process
>>             of development of pertsonality.
>>             Only some ideas.
>>             Armando
>>
>>             ________________________________________
>>             From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>             [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf
>>             Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
>>             Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:23 PM
>>             To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
>>             Subject: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
>>
>>             I am answering David's question about "why zoped." I did
>>             not include it in
>>             my talk because I am uncertain of the audience's national
>>             backgrounds and was assuming "mixed but mostly Russian
>>             speakers". The talk
>>             was supposed to be about 20 minutes long and I was
>>             uncertain of the time. And I was also mindful of the fact
>>             that on Tuesday
>>             following its showing at the Vygotsky readings, I will be
>>             discussing the
>>             issues raised, and whatever people feel like talk about
>>             via skype,
>>             sooooooo.
>>
>>             As many know, when i organize obrazovanie, I like to mix
>>             serious stuff with
>>             play. Also, I have a long term interest in the the
>>             enculturation
>>             practices and processes of peoples for whom literacy has
>>             not been a central
>>             part of enculturation until, perhaps, recent times. And, I
>>             enjoy
>>             participating in the forms of activity that emerge when
>>             zopeds are created
>>             as a part of our research and educational practices.
>>
>>             With that context (add or subtract to taste) the notion of
>>             a zoped came
>>             from
>>             two sources. First of all, it IS easier to say! :-)
>>             Secondly, it involves forms of pedagogy -- arranging for
>>             the young to
>>             acquire valued skills, knowledge, belief, behaviors, etc --
>>             Third, when it works, it seems like "something happened,"
>>             a qualitative
>>             field that sometimes can be like flow, sometimes can be
>>             triggered by timely juxtapositions, montage-like. And it
>>             seems to lead to a
>>             more inclusive, more integrated way of relating to the
>>             world at least
>>             in that setting. Whatever this "something" is, it has a
>>             magical quality to
>>             it.
>>
>>             In Liberia when and where I pretended to work once upon a
>>             time the most
>>             respected, revered, and feared members of the community were
>>             shamen, a concept referred to in Liberia at the time
>>             (across language
>>             groups, so far as I could tell) as a Zo, what popular
>>             culture refers to
>>             as "witch doctors." They were THE teachers. But they
>>             worked through magic.
>>
>>             That about sums up my idea of the zone of proximal
>>             development. It requires
>>             sage pedagogy and a touch of magic. When those are combined,
>>             they, of course, constitute a zo-ped.
>>
>>             I personally recommend spending time in such third spaces.
>>             :-))
>>             mike
>>             __________________________________________
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>>             http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
>>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
>>
>>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
>>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
>>
>>
>>
>>         __________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>     --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>     Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
>>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
>>     <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>     MIA: http://www.marxists.org
>>
>>
>>     __________________________________________
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>>
>

--
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*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
MIA: http://www.marxists.org

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