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Re: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped



Ah! Apologies. I hadn't noticed that "Mike's ironic point" was off line. The irony was "Why not just withhold 'support' from birth, Andy?"
Andy
Andy Blunden wrote:
Before you can "perform who you are not yet," i.e., an independent person, others have to treat you as an independent person. I take Mike's ironic point, that /prior to/ that one must have some opportunity to know how an independent person acts, but so long as you are treated as someone who need help ...

Andy

Helen Grimmett (Education) wrote:
Interesting angle Andy! I suppose it depends on the view of learning and development you are taking. I came to the zpd via the work of Rogoff and Lave & Wenger so came to view learning as transformation of participation in cultural activities. Then I came to Lois Holzman's work and take the definition of development as the activity of creating who you are by performing who you are not yet. In my understanding of these views, learning and development is only possible with the support of others, by participating in the activities of (and with) others. I have never thought about the relevance of the withdrawal of support - I'll have to ponder on that for a while to see how (or if) it fits in my schema!

Interested to hear what others think,
Helen

On 16 November 2010 01:47, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Mike, for whatever reason, zoped has never been a concept which
    figured very largely in my thinking.

    Apart from my interest in understanding social change and
    zeitgeist my practical interest in Vygotsky's ideas has been in
    relation to practical activity with mature adults, mostly where
    the learner is not so much a person, but a group of adults, such
    as a union branch or suchlike. But I have also developed an
    interest in disability support.

    In both these cases, it has always seemed to me that it is the
    withdrawal of support which facilitates development, not the
    provision of support. Of course, the very act of withdrawal of
    support is itself assisting the "learner" in making the
    development. Withdrawing support is a variety of support.

    Does this fit into the general schema of theorising with zoped?

    Andy


    mike cole wrote:

        Armando.
        It seems to me that people can use any term they like in
        seeking to index
        the processes they believe
        to be indicated by Vygotsky. Proximal in English refers to
        both time and
        space. In Spanish also, I believe as in:
        Hasta la semaina *proxima.*

        I was simply providing an explanation for my coinage.

        mike
        On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:52 AM, Armando Perez Yera
        <armandop@uclv.edu.cu <mailto:armandop@uclv.edu.cu>>wrote:

Mike:
            Why we do not work ZPD as zone of potencial development.
            ZPD as zone of
            proximal development taste as space dimension, Potencial
            development taste
            as time. Also Zone of colective potencial development
            taste as SSD (Social
            situation of development) And nbot anly as cognitive
            proce3ss but as process
            of development of pertsonality.
            Only some ideas.
            Armando

            ________________________________________
            From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
            [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf
Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
            Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:23 PM
            To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
            Subject: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped

            I am answering David's question about "why zoped." I did
            not include it in
            my talk because I am uncertain of the audience's national
            backgrounds and was assuming "mixed but mostly Russian
            speakers". The talk
            was supposed to be about 20 minutes long and I was
            uncertain of the time. And I was also mindful of the fact
            that on Tuesday
            following its showing at the Vygotsky readings, I will be
            discussing the
            issues raised, and whatever people feel like talk about
            via skype,
            sooooooo.

            As many know, when i organize obrazovanie, I like to mix
            serious stuff with
            play. Also, I have a long term interest in the the
            enculturation
            practices and processes of peoples for whom literacy has
            not been a central
            part of enculturation until, perhaps, recent times. And, I
            enjoy
            participating in the forms of activity that emerge when
            zopeds are created
            as a part of our research and educational practices.

            With that context (add or subtract to taste) the notion of
            a zoped came
            from
            two sources. First of all, it IS easier to say! :-)
            Secondly, it involves forms of pedagogy -- arranging for
            the young to
            acquire valued skills, knowledge, belief, behaviors, etc --
            Third, when it works, it seems like "something happened,"
            a qualitative
            field that sometimes can be like flow, sometimes can be
            triggered by timely juxtapositions, montage-like. And it
            seems to lead to a
            more inclusive, more integrated way of relating to the
            world at least
            in that setting. Whatever this "something" is, it has a
            magical quality to
            it.

            In Liberia when and where I pretended to work once upon a
            time the most
            respected, revered, and feared members of the community were
            shamen, a concept referred to in Liberia at the time
            (across language
            groups, so far as I could tell) as a Zo, what popular
            culture refers to
            as "witch doctors." They were THE teachers. But they
            worked through magic.

            That about sums up my idea of the zone of proximal
            development. It requires
            sage pedagogy and a touch of magic. When those are combined,
            they, of course, constitute a zo-ped.

            I personally recommend spending time in such third spaces.
            :-))
            mike
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            Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
            http://www.uclv.edu.cu


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