Re: [xmca] Any work on the development of egoism in the child(ren)

[Jorge Fernando Larreamendy Joerns <jlarream@uniandes.edu.co>]

Branding, indeed, Andy, is a complex issue!!! As Mike suggests, it is a matter of subtle linguistic analysis, layers, and non-converging concepts. But there's a need behind, unknown, but behind. One simple meaning is that of recognition. 

Jorge


Jorge Larreamendy-Joerns, Ph.D.
Profesor Asociado y Director
Departamento de Psicología
Universidad de los Andes







On Nov 14, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:

> and we have had political parties "branding" themselves here, too. I hate this expression with a vengeance, perhaps doubly so because there is a grain of truth in it. The people who talk about branding do so partly by way of contrast with accumulating wealth. But the grain of truth is that people do need to form some sort of concept of themselves. But whether that is for the purpose of "marketing" themselves is another matter.
> 
> On Cuba, I wonder (sic) if serving the people is a bit like pursuit of happiness. I really don't know. But I am asking if this is something which can be achieved by making it an aim. I don't see any problem with the way you express it in the words of Marti. I would like to think about this for a while.
> 
> Andy
> 
> mike cole wrote:
>> Ulvi--
>> 
>> Last week I heard a talk about "branding" in which people "brand" themselves
>> (American think of burning initials into cattle as "branding" but it is also
>> the nike swoosh, etc.). It appears to be a kind of apex of the logical of
>> neoliberalism in which social mechanisms modeled on monetary transactions
>> become the measure of all things. It is a topic ripe for a
>> cultural-historical analysis and suggests many avenues of approach.
>> mike
>> 
>> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 9:05 AM, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> Thanks Andy, I share completely your point of view as regards the material
>>> basis of individualism.
>>> 
>>> My initial question was just aiming a simple query if egoism could be an
>>> interesting theme to study from a Vygotskian perspective.
>>> 
>>> I think that this kind of characteristics are very social. In October, I
>>> was
>>> in Cuba, within a children theater, called "Little Beehive".
>>> 
>>> According to a principle of José Marti, children in this company, come
>>> together every week and they share their experience how they make a good
>>> action towards other people in the society. To make a good action towards
>>> peers or elderly people. But not superficially because José Marti also says
>>> that this good action should be quite voluntary, should come from within
>>> the child not imposed on him/her from without.
>>> 
>>> I know these children since  several years. And I understood how they
>>> are brought up as good human beings. I do not aim any idealization of Cuba
>>> and her children but the children in this company are apparently formed as
>>> good human beings.
>>> 
>>> And I also know that in Cuban society egoism is a human characteristic
>>> which
>>> is very much fought.
>>> 
>>> Thus, my question was aiming to the study of the educational, psychological
>>> and other processes in which children grow up as egoistic persons...
>>> 
>>> Ulvi
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2010/11/14 Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>>> 
>>>    
>>>> Ulvi, I take egoism as individualism in ethics, sometimes called
>>>> narcissism, yes? Surely it is widely agreed that the roots of
>>>>      
>>> individualism
>>>    
>>>> lie in bourgeois society (i.e., the economic activity of capitalist
>>>>      
>>> society
>>>    
>>>> outside both state and family). Even Hegel referred to the "business
>>>>      
>>> class"
>>>    
>>>> (both employees and employers) as "the individual class" before Marx went
>>>> further into the institutional roots of individualism. The current state
>>>>      
>>> of
>>>    
>>>> bourgeois society in countries where the population is saturated with
>>>> advertising and a constant stream of propaganda telling people "you
>>>>      
>>> deserve
>>>    
>>>> it" etc., etc., etc., together with political systems based on individual
>>>> voting in large geographical electorates and individualised consumption
>>>>      
>>> of
>>>    
>>>> still more or less centralised means of communicaiton, build on the
>>>> foundation of commodity exchange and the fragmentation of all forms of
>>>> collaboration.
>>>> 
>>>> Andy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ulvi icil wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>>> Mike, David:
>>>>> Sorry for not being clear. I did not mean egocentrism of the child nor
>>>>> his/her egocentric speech.
>>>>> What I meant was the defective characteristic that some human beings
>>>>>        
>>> gain
>>>    
>>>>> in
>>>>> the process of being adults: Egoism. And I meant the process of how the
>>>>> chilld, on his/her lifetime, becomes an egoistic adult, I mean the
>>>>> thinking,
>>>>> speech, language of the human society which carries egoism into the
>>>>>        
>>> child
>>>    
>>>>> and in this sense the process how the child internalizes egoism from
>>>>> his/her
>>>>> social relations etc.
>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2010/11/13 David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>        
>>>>>> Ulvi:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think Vygotsky doesn't accept Piaget's idea that children are
>>>>>> egocentric
>>>>>> in their thinking, and if you read how he uses "egocentric speech" you
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> see that he guts it of all of its "egocentric" comment; he simply means
>>>>>> speech that is meant for the child's own ears rather than those of
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> else. So Vygotsky essentially rejects the whole idea of child egotism
>>>>>>          
>>> and
>>>    
>>>>>> even child egocentrism.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Even Piaget eventually decided that the word "ego" was misplaced. In
>>>>>>          
>>> his
>>>    
>>>>>> later work he describes the child's thinking as "non-decentrated" or
>>>>>> "centrated". What he means is that the child lives in a kind of
>>>>>> pre-Copernican universe (although of course our idea that there is only
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> universe may also be a vestige of centration!).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vygotsky uses the term "egocentric speech" the way that a thieving
>>>>>>          
>>> magpie
>>>    
>>>>>> uses a stolen spoon to build a nest. It doesn't really fit his
>>>>>> construction
>>>>>> very well, because Vygotsky thinks that the child really HAS no ego
>>>>>>          
>>> until
>>>    
>>>>>> quite late.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Functionally, the child begins to act like an ego from the moment (the
>>>>>> Crisis at Age Three, according to Vygotsky's Collected Works Volume
>>>>>>          
>>> Five)
>>>    
>>>>>> that the child seizes that great and powerful word "No!" from his
>>>>>> environment. But as Vygotsky points out, the child often uses this word
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> when the child wants to say yes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I remember promising my little neice-lette at five that I would take
>>>>>>          
>>> her
>>>    
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> Seoul-Land if she finished copying seven Chinese characters. She
>>>>>>          
>>> dawdled
>>>    
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> long time, but finally did it. So I asked her if she still wanted to
>>>>>>          
>>> go,
>>>    
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> she said "No!" although she visibly did want to go, and she cried when
>>>>>>          
>>> we
>>>    
>>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So we can say that at this stage the child has an ego "for others" but
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> for herself; it is a purely reactive, interactional, functional ego and
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> a conscious, volitional, controllable one. (We certainly CANNOT say
>>>>>>          
>>> that
>>>    
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> child has difficulty in detaching her own point of view from that of
>>>>>> others;
>>>>>> she is very conscious that "No!" suggests a fundamental difference in
>>>>>> stance
>>>>>> from those in her circumstance.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We can't really say that she has an ego for herself, because she is not
>>>>>> able to control her will and her ego. She is able to differentiate an
>>>>>>          
>>> "I"
>>>    
>>>>>> from what Vygotsky calls "Ur-wir" (The proto-We, or as I like to think
>>>>>>          
>>> of
>>>    
>>>>>> it, the "Royal We").
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But she does this only in action and reaction, and not in thought and
>>>>>> reflection. It's easier done than said, one of those things that is all
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> well in practice, but it doesn't quite work out in theory.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When does "I" become "ego", that is, when do children seize conscious
>>>>>> awareness of the separateness of "I" from "we"?  It seems to me this
>>>>>>          
>>> must
>>>    
>>>>>> happen about the time that children develop invisible friends,
>>>>>> hero-worship,
>>>>>> and become highly interested in role-playing games. Which strikes me as
>>>>>> non-coincidental.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>> Seoul National University of Education
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Any work on the development of egoism in the child(ren)
>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 3:03 AM
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did anybody meet any work on the development of egoism in the
>>>>>>          
>>> child(ren)?
>>>    
>>>>>> (
>>>>>> Surely, from the Vygotskian perspective)
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Ulvi
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>>          
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>        
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>>>> *Andy Blunden*
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