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Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc



> . Why would you assume we have the same concept of music?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 

Would communication and shared reference have anything to do with it? What does "same" mean in this context, Martin? 

Jorge






> 
> On Jul 9, 2010, at 12:22 PM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> 
>> Martin:
>> 
>> I agree that increasing the vernacular does not increase understanding.
>> 
>> Yet still my perception of music differs from others but yet my concept 
>> does not, would you agree with that?
>> 
>> Try listening to Lou Reed's" Machine Metal Music" and tell me what you 
>> think.
>> 
>> eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From:   Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
>> To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date:   07/09/2010 11:46 AM
>> Subject:        Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc
>> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Eric,
>> 
>> For me, the question that needs to be answered is why we need to introduce 
>> a new term, "percept." We can all talk about 'perception,' as an active 
>> process of interaction with the world, right? What is gained when we start 
>> to talk about 'percepts,' as though there are some little entities 
>> floating around somewhere? Haven't we turned a process into an entity?
>> 
>> The university has a good selection of DVDs, and I recently checked out 
>> the first season of the cable TV channel Showtime's series The Tudors, 
>> which recounts how Henry VIII's need for a male heir led to the rupture 
>> between England and the Catholic Church. It's not exactly aiming for 
>> historical accuracy, but I was then motivated to check out Elton's history 
>> of the period and it turns out the series does a pretty good job of 
>> touching on most of the important events.
>> 
>> Everyone in the show is a fashion statement, including Cardinal Wolsey 
>> who, as played by Sam Neil, is both cunning and likable. He shows up each 
>> time in a different outfit, wearing a variety of official headgear, each 
>> in that rich cardinal red.
>> 
>> One morning I was fixing breakfast and reached out for the salt shaker. 
>> It's made of transparent plastic with a lid, something we picked up at the 
>> supermarket. But the lid is bright red, and (and here's the point; thanks 
>> for your patience!) as I picked it up, for a second or two what I saw was 
>> a little cardinal.
>> 
>> That seems to me a nice example of what Mike has been exploring, the 
>> active and ongoing character of perception, in which conceiving and 
>> perceiving are intimately linked. I see the object *through* and *in 
>> terms* of a concept (though we're still none to sure what that is!), in 
>> this case the concept of cardinal that had been enriched by watching the 
>> TV show. The process is not entirely within me as an individual, because 
>> the salt shaker did its part. 
>> 
>> To me, saying that I "have" a "percept" doesn't help me understand this 
>> process. The percept would be -  what, a little red cardinal? or is the 
>> percept the salt shaker, and I impose a concept of cardinal on it? but 
>> isn't 'salt shaker' a concept too?? Putting all of this stuff inside the 
>> individual leads to an infinite regress, not a satisfactory explanation 
>> (or even description) of what is going on.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> On Jul 9, 2010, at 10:43 AM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>> 
>>> Percept would be preference?  I don't know exactly but people do not 
>>> operate upon appropriated concepts 100% of the time.  Do they? Certainly 
>> 
>>> children do not.  Currently I am not exactly sure what the question is 
>>> that needs to be answered.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the percept in the 'not-wanting-to-listen-to-dylan" for me would 
>> 
>>> be I would prefer listening to the radio seeing as he never gets any air 
>> 
>>> time or perhaps it would be that I am stuck inside of mobile with the 
>>> memphis blues again? 
>>> 
>>> That certainly is a great question.  Others with 
>>> thoughts/percepts/concepts?
>>> 
>>> eric
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From:   Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
>>> To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> Date:   07/09/2010 09:14 AM
>>> Subject:        Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc
>>> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> OK, Eric let's suppose you woke up this morning not wanting to listen to 
>> 
>>> Dylan. What is the percept in that situation? Dylan? His music? Your 
>>> temporary dislike? The fact that yesterday you felt differently?
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> On Jul 9, 2010, at 8:04 AM, ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Martin:
>>>> 
>>>> I understand your misgivings about placing construction within but 
>>> perhaps 
>>>> this makes sense:  concepts are appropriated from the social/cultural 
>>>> arena but percepts are individually based.  My percepts about music may 
>> 
>>>> run counter to yours and there are even days I don't want to listen to 
>>> Bob 
>>>> Dylan.  However, I have an appropriated concept of music that is 
>>> probably 
>>>> extremely similar to yours.  Does this make sense?  I know this 
>>>> internal/exteranl debate has raged for years and won't end anytime soon 
>> 
>>>> but some things do indeed happen within.  I still have to think though 
>>>> that cracking this code between everyday and scietific could assist in 
>>>> understanding human development.
>>>> 
>>>> eric
>>>> 
>>> 
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