RE: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Thank you very much.

I am looking at - high now. Give me some time in order to not talk things without some reflection. I can say, in advance, that I appreciate the methodological propose... Is intellectuality interesting and affectively pleasant... 
See you soon. Thank you again.
Best. 

*******|||||||||||
> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:41:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> OK, I will read when possible. Soon I hope!!
> 
> Here is the link to the image. My interest is in your introspective
> microgenetic process of interpreting it.
> mike
> -------------
> The New Yorker has done it again. If you have a minute, take a look at this
> week's cover.
> In the process of looking new meanings will emerge. How they emerge appears
> to differ from person to person. I would REALLY appreciate a microgenetic
> introspective report from anyone with the time. I have now collected three
> examples of such, including my own and all three are different.
> 
> I sure wish I could get to ask Vygotsky and Eistenshtein to do this and
> report to us about it!!
> mike
> 
> http://archives.newyorker.com/?i=2010-07
> 
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I could not look at, until now... Unfortunately I had not read most of XMCA
> > topics last times, because I was working at a little paper here, I'm
> > suffering a lot, because the publisher cuts in my original... well... Poor
> > Vygotsky - if me, being nobody, turned so sad, I wonder how crude must had
> > been for him, that was a genius :-) ... And so, I don't know what is
> > happening by other communication means as well. Can you point me some link?
> >
> > See, here are the three versions with the page numbers. I put attached too,
> > in case of problems with text configuration.... (some typing mistakes will
> > be my fault, please forgive me in advance)...
> >
> > I
> > – At the Reader
> >
> >
> >
> > “These
> > observations lead us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical
> > task
> > with the help of not only eyes and hands, but also speech. This newly born
> > unity of perception, speech and action, which leads to the inculcation of
> > the
> > laws of the visual field, constitutes the real and vital object of analysis
> > aimed
> > at studing the origin of specifically human forms of behavior”
> >
> > (p. 109)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > II
> > – At “Collected Works” - Volume 6.
> >
> >
> >
> > “These
> > observations bring us to the conclusion that the child solves a practical
> > problem not only with his eyes and hands, but also with the help of speech.
> > The
> > unity of perception that has developed, of speech and action, which leads
> > to a
> > re-organization of the signs of the visual field, also makes up a
> > subordinate
> > and very important object of analysis directed toward the study of the
> > origin of specifically human forms of behavior."
> >
> > (p. 15 – translation from Russian -
> > Marie J. Hall)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > III - The Russian
> > 1984 - Tom 6
> >
> >  "Эти
> > наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребёнок решает практическую задачу
> > не
> > только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее  единство
> > восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит
> > к перестройке законов  зрительного поля,
> > и составляет подлинный и важнейший объект анализа, направленного на
> > изучение происхождения
> > специфически человеческих форм поведения."
> >
> > (p. 23 – Pedagogika Publisher)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:12:31 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >
> > I need to read the full text again, Achilles. What page does it appear on
> > in LSV's collected works in English and in the "ReadingVygotsky" volume?
> >
> > I am somewhat disappointed that people on XMCA have responded to that New
> > Yorker image at such a "macro" level. Did you get a chance to look at it? Of
> > course, your perception will be changed by what has been written, but still,
> > it is interesting. I will write about it later after others have had a
> > chance to reply, explaining why I find it so interesting.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > PS-- I am sorry i missed information that you received the emotions book.
> > too much email, too much work, my usual problem.
> > Its nice to have a three day weekend!!
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes... but I'm not only criticizing the poor conditions of American
> > Editorial Endeavors - of course outside Russia, in USA are the most
> > important publishers for Vygotsky's works in the world, and I'm very
> > thankful for you all... BUT => I was trying to make sense for that unity
> > "action-perception-speech" maybe could really not be the "more" important
> > unity, but an important one, spite not the more important... But let it be.
> >
> >
> > Yes, thank you very much, that book is very interesting some critics from
> > Vygotsky to James and Langue are almost literally in that book.. But I don't
> > finish yet... I can try to make a rusume to pass you, if could be useful for
> > you... I don't what happens for Chabrier, I guess a sudden death... There
> > are no clues about his biography... and no titles beyond that, -- In Google
> > searches, and other internet databases... I liked him...
> >
> > Thank you very much. :-)
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > P.S. I had answered your question in other e-mail, if you see there later
> > is the almost the same I said here. Best!
> >
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:24:49 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >
> > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >
> > Who knows, Achilles. I do not know the person or why she confused podlinni
> > with podchinit! (I am guessing). Maybe she was poorly paid and in a hurry.
> >
> >
> > Did you get that french book on emotions???
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Exactly, I know, the "subordinate" is from American volume 6 (1999) - Marie
> > J. Hall , not mine. My question was why she did this? She didn't have a
> > dictionary as good as you have???
> > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:57:58 -0700
> >
> >
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > *Podlinni is not subordinate. The three definitions given in the big
> > Russian
> > > dictionary are:
> > >
> > > 1. being original, not copied
> > >  2. real
> > > 3. the most real and true
> >
> >
> > >
> > > genuine works well as a gloss on all of these.
> > > *vazneishii i would translate as *most important*
> > > On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much, Mike.
> > > >
> > > > I only didn't understand that important difference in volume 6 -
> > English
> > > > version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian itself
> > (1984)
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
> > > > X
> > > > ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> > > >
> > > > Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in
> > Portuguese...
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one important
> > object
> > > > of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at this
> > ontogenetic
> > > > moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of analysis"
> > because if
> >
> >
> > > > it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the same time
> > the
> > > > object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own object???
> > For me
> > > > this unity seems to be something more like a "functional unity" (not
> > exactly
> >
> >
> > > > in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of course) or
> > > > better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be called
> > only a
> > > > new "functional system" more precisely... among others... action and
> > speech,
> >
> >
> > > > ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be
> > > > "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking",
> > > > "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel "subordinate" could
> > be
> >
> >
> > > > even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake in this
> > way of
> > > > reasoning...
> > > >
> > > > *This is very difficult for me to follow. but fidelity works about the
> > > > same way that genuine does.*
> >
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> >
> >
> > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > >
> > > > I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian or these
> >
> >
> > > > "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I am
> > unsure.
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sure,
> > > >
> > > > my question is because can happens situations in which a Russian
> > edition is
> > > > translation from a English original publication wrote in English by the
> > own
> >
> >
> > > > Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the 1984's
> > Russian
> > > > edition... If it is published from some "original" manuscripts from
> > 1930 or
> > > > translated based in your american English version, published in the
> >
> >
> > > > "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > . For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally publishede in
> > English
> > > > about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no Russian
> > original
> >
> >
> > > > version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today, translated
> > from
> > > > the English I presume... There is no such situations???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> >
> > > > **************
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > >
> > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got
> > this
> >
> >
> > > > > from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in
> > the
> > > > > translation on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but
> > was
> >
> >
> > > > not
> > > >
> > > > > published.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and
> > Kolya
> > > > > Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more
> >
> >
> > > > important
> > > > > things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf.
> > (And i
> > > >
> > > > > could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex
> > > > circumstances
> >
> >
> > > > > between 1930 and 1977!!).
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >
> >
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian
> > from
> >
> >
> > > > Tom 6
> > > > > > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > > > > > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > correspond
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > > > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual
> > field
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > so both translations are far from ideal
> > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > > > > > ellampert@gmail.com
> >
> >
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me
> > for
> >
> >
> > > > a
> > > > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But
> > I
> > > > agree
> > > >
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second
> > sentence.
> >
> >
> > > > > > "Genuine
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from
> > my
> > > > point
> > > >
> > > > > > of
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of
> > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > concept
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.
> >
> >
> > > >  "Real,
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Elina
> >
> > > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this
> > book
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > "Tool
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this
> > > > simple
> > > > > > > quote
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very
> > different,
> > > > see
> > > >
> > > > > > > please:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not
> > > > only
> > > > > > eyes
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of
> > perception,
> >
> >
> > > > speech
> > > >
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > action,
> > > > > > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual
> > field,
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing
> > the
> > > > origin
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice
> > that
> >
> >
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this
> > > > information
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > correct,
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe
> > Luria
> > > > > > > himself?)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his
> > > > eyes
> > > >
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > hands,
> > > > > > > > > > but
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that
> > has
> > > > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the
> >
> >
> > > > signs of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > visual
> > > > > > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT
> > *object
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> > > > > > specifically
> > > > > > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок
> > решает
> > > >
> > > > > > > практическую
> > > > > > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью
> > речи.
> >
> >
> > > > > > > Возникшее
> > > > > > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к
> > > >
> > > > > > перестройке
> > > > > > > > > законов
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ
> >  *объект
> > > > > > > анализа*,
> > > > > > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически
> >
> >
> > > > человеческих
> > > >
> > > > > > > форм
> > > > > > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > ***************************************
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > > > (не
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный)
> > true,
> > > >
> > > > > > real;
> > > > > > > and
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > > > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> > > > > > adequate,
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This
> >
> >
> > > > Russian
> > > >
> > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for
> > Cole
> > > > by
> >
> >
> > > > > > > Luria,
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were
> > lost,
> > > > or
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > something
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the
> > English
> > > > > > > version of
> > > > > > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky
> > and
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international
> > > > publication
> > > > > > > > > trying???
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to
> > know
> > > > that
> > > > > > > "newly
> > > > > > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not
> >
> >
> > > > exactly a
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know
> > > > something
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are
> > not
> >
> >
> > > > so
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what
> > was
> > > > > > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank you, very much.
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO
> > > > HOTMAIL.
> > > > > > > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > > > > > > AQUI.
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one
> > end
> >
> >
> > > > of it
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > > > string is
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > > > violin
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a
> > violin
> >
> >
> > > > > > > string.
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI
> > PARA
> > > > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> >
> >
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > >
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA
> > COMO.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA. CLIQUE E VEJA
> > AS
> > > > NOVIDADES.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:PREPARE-SE83:-
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 AJUDA VOCÊ A FICAR LONGE DOS VÍRUS. DESCUBRA COMO.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > O INTERNET EXPLORER 8 DÁ DICAS DE SEGURANÇA PARA VOCÊ SAIBA MAIS!
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA
> > COMEÇAR.
> >
> > http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
PREPARE-SE: O SEU HOTMAIL VAI FICAR MELHOR DO QUE NUNCA. CLIQUE E VEJA AS NOVIDADES.
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