RE: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Exactly, I know and I was the first that say this. The "subordinate" is from American volume 6 (1999) - Marie J. Hall , not mine. My question was why she did this? She didn't have a dictionary as good as you have???


> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:57:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> *Podlinni is not subordinate. The three definitions given in the big Russian
> dictionary are:
> 
> 1. being original, not copied
>  2. real
> 3. the most real and true
> 
> genuine works well as a gloss on all of these.
> *vazneishii i would translate as *most important*
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Thank you very much, Mike.
> >
> > I only didn't understand that important difference in volume 6 - English
> > version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian itself (1984)
> >
> > SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
> > X
> > ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> >
> > Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in Portuguese...
> >
> >
> > That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one important object
> > of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at this ontogenetic
> > moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of analysis" because if
> > it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the same time the
> > object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own object??? For me
> > this unity seems to be something more like a "functional unity" (not exactly
> > in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of course) or
> > better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be called only a
> > new "functional system" more precisely... among others... action and speech,
> > ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be
> > "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking",
> > "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel "subordinate" could be
> > even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake in this way of
> > reasoning...
> >
> > *This is very difficult for me to follow. but fidelity works about the
> > same way that genuine does.*
> >
> 
> mike
> 
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >
> > I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian or these
> > "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I am unsure.
> > mike
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure,
> >
> > my question is because can happens situations in which a Russian edition is
> > translation from a English original publication wrote in English by the own
> > Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the 1984's Russian
> > edition... If it is published from some "original" manuscripts from 1930 or
> > translated based in your american English version, published in the
> > "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...
> >
> >
> > . For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally publishede in English
> > about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no Russian original
> > version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today, translated from
> > the English I presume... There is no such situations???
> >
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > **************
> >
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> >
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> >
> > > Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got this
> > > from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in the
> > > translation on it.
> > >
> > > It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but was
> > not
> >
> > > published.
> > >
> > > I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and Kolya
> > > Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more
> > important
> > > things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf. (And i
> >
> > > could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex
> > circumstances
> > > between 1930 and 1977!!).
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian from
> > Tom 6
> > > > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > > > Thank you very much.Achilles.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> >
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not
> >
> > > > > correspond
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
> > > > > > so both translations are far from ideal
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > > > ellampert@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for
> > a
> > > > > quick
> > > > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I
> > agree
> >
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence.
> > > > "Genuine
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from my
> > point
> >
> > > > of
> > > > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's
> > > > concept
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.
> >  "Real,
> >
> > > > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Elina
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book
> >
> > > > "Tool
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this
> > simple
> > > > > quote
> > > > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different,
> > see
> >
> > > > > please:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> >
> > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not
> > only
> > > > eyes
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception,
> > speech
> >
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > action,
> > > > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > > > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the
> > origin
> >
> > > > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that
> > this
> > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this
> > information
> >
> > > > > > > correct,
> > > > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria
> > > > > himself?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his
> > eyes
> >
> > > > and
> > > > > > > hands,
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has
> > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > of
> >
> > > > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the
> > signs of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > visual
> > > > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object
> >
> > > > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> > > > specifically
> > > > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает
> >
> > > > > практическую
> > > > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи.
> > > > > Возникшее
> > > > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к
> >
> > > > перестройке
> > > > > > > законов
> > > > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ  *объект
> > > > > анализа*,
> > > > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически
> > человеческих
> >
> > > > > форм
> > > > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ***************************************
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > > > (не
> > > > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный) true,
> >
> > > > real;
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
> >
> > > > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> > > > adequate,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This
> > Russian
> >
> > > > > version
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole
> > by
> > > > > Luria,
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost,
> > or
> >
> > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English
> > > > > version of
> > > > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and
> >
> > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > > > wrote
> > > > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international
> > publication
> > > > > > > trying???
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know
> > that
> > > > > "newly
> > > > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not
> > exactly a
> >
> > > > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know
> > something
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are not
> > so
> >
> > > > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > > > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you, very much.
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO
> > HOTMAIL.
> > > > > > > CLIQUE
> > > > > > > > AQUI.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/product.aspx/view/1?ocid=Hotmail:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:QUERANEXAR80:-
> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end
> > of it
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin
> > string is
> >
> > > > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my
> > violin
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin
> > > > > string.
> >
> > > > > > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore
> > > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> >
> > > > > TRANSFORME SUAS FOTOS EM EMOTICONS PARA O MESSENGER. CLIQUE AQUI PARA
> > > > > COMEÇAR.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://ilm.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=ILM:Live:Hotmail:Tagline:senDimensao:TRANSFORME78:-
> >
> > > > >
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> >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
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> >
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