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Re: RE: [xmca] about emotions



The place of emotions. Where are they located and what is their relation to cognition, discourse, social structure, history.
One thought that comes to "mind" is Anna Sfards notion of commognition as a single nondualistic process of discourse located "internally - interpersonally". {Hyphen NOT "/"}
However emotions, as well as being discursive constructions, also have a cultural and relational process from the first moments of the infants life.
Winnicott's discourse emerged from "object" relational theory and talks about "transitional" objects which carry psychological meaning.
This line of thinking has advanced within the "attachment literature" that extends Bolwby's constructs to embrace the "relational" turn in psychoanalysis.  Within this discourse infant development is a central focus as they explore the "emergence" of the "self"( self is still a construct being theorized within this discourse) as fundamentally social. The "communication" of affective states which are "regulated" by attunement BETWEEN the caregiver and infant.  This is not a linear process but is a process of MUTUAL recognition.
What is being engaged within the discourse of relational psychoanalysis is the recognition that the affective communication processes that are observed in infant development continue to be elaborated at theaffective level throughout the lifespan and therefore the processes affective processes observed in infants are central to our understanding of being human.  
The discussions of how the emotions are "experienced" and "understood" and "expressed" and "enacted" become "transformed" (in Sfard's commognition model) BUT from a relational psychoanalytic discourse the INTERSUBJECTIVE affective relational process is foregrounded or privleged as needing theorizing alongside the explorations of commognition and discourses.
I personally am enjoying the commognitive process of the CHAT, sociocultural, and the relational psychoanalytic conversations scrambling the fallible perspectives I'm engaging with.

Larry

----- Original Message -----
From: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:27 am
Subject: RE: [xmca] about emotions
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

> As I was reading the summary referenced below I was struck by 
> the 
> dichotomy of emotions and society.  So much so that they 
> can instigate an 
> interruption to a person's participation in society.  
> Perhaps emotions are 
> societies nemesis?
> 
> what do other's think?
> 
> 
> eric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 11/25/2009 09:30 AM
> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> 
>  
>         
> To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>        cc: 
>         
> Subject:        RE: [xmca] 
> about emotions
> 
> 
> I thought this was a well done review of the philosophy of emotion:
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> 11/25/2009 12:36 AM
> Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> 
>  
>         
> To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>        cc: 
>         
> Subject:        RE: [xmca] 
> Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about 
> emotions
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, sure, this a problem, above all, a problem not only a postulate.
> I don't know about Winnicott, but human objects have a meaning too,
> this semiotic dimension of an object, by any process is 
> converted from
> social relations to the social structure of personality... 
> Vygotsky 
> emphasizes ideological process in human emotion constitutions, 
> for 
> instance the difference between cellos in the Mussulman culture and
> in occidental culture... And even historical transformations in 
> our way
> to feel something... including love... This seems to be an interesting
> approach, because seems to trace a kind of anthropological view to
> the question. Not only our tools, actions and signs historically 
> developed,
> but our emotions too, in a systemic and inter-functional set. 
> These 
> are some ideas that pass through me reading this chapter. But most
> part of time Vygotsky is criticizing Descartes, James/Lange, Freud,
> Scheler/Lotze... and his own affirmative position is only announced.
> Winnicott can be a good contribution, I don´t know, how important
> is the culture and the history to Winniccot? These transitional 
> objetcschances only in form retaining the unconscious contends? 
> Or the un-
> conscious contends can change ideologically, culturally and 
> historically?How constitutional can be history, culture and 
> ideology in human feelings?
> The sample of Alighieri is very interesting... How many social 
> process 
> are important in love, for instance... not immediated ones, has 
> you say,
> but mediated process... Its complex, Vygotsky refuses the "peripheral
> hypothesis, than the central, properly human, neuro-functional 
> formationswill take a decisive role em the entire process... I 
> don´t now, I only
> have a problem, not sufficiently organized of course. I had read about
> "perezhivanie" and its metodologycal role as "dynamic unit"... 
> and 
> emotions
> are close, even they are not the same. 
> 
> Thank you, Andy.
> Best wishes.
> Achilles. 
> 
> > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:09:03 +1100
> > From: ablunden@mira.net
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > 
> > Achilles, this is a fascinating problem, isn't it? It's 
> > kinda way out of my area, but can I just offer a couple of 
> > innane observations from my own remote point of view?
> > 
> > 1. We should think of the body as an artifact which as such 
> > plays the same mediating role in consciousness as do other 
> > artifacts. We have a thought, our stomach tenses up, we feel 
> > that tension in the stomach.  Thus the emotional reaction 
> in 
> > our guts mediates our feeling about the thought. etc.
> > 
> > 2. Donald Winnicott's current of psychoanalysis for all its 
> > faults brings Freud much closer to CHAT by his study of 
> > (transitional) objects which act as mediating elements for 
> > us, bearers of affect and association. Same kind of thing as 
> > 1., but the artifact is external to the body, but has 
> > pesonal meaning.
> > 
> > Andy
> > 
> > Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > > Some quotes, from Vygotsky
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Little attention has been given to this aspect of the 
> problem because 
> the problem
> > > of man did not at all arise before contemporary psychology. 
> But from 
> the very
> > > beginning, even the authors of the theory and their critics 
> understood 
> 
> that in the
> > > visceral hypothesis, they were speaking in essence of the 
> animal 
> nature of human
> > > emotions. We will cite Chabrier, who advanced this idea in 
> the most 
> complete form.
> > > Chabrier says that with this problem, we penetrate into the 
> heart of 
> the problem
> > > and touch on the major objection that rises against the 
> peripheral 
> theory. When
> > > we are speaking about instincts, we have before us an 
> absolutely and 
> invariably
> > > established mechanism, which is activated automatically as 
> soon as an 
> appropriate
> > > stimulation appears. It is possible that this is true also 
> with 
> respect to the primitive
> > > emotions of the child, but it cannot be the same with 
> respect to the 
> usual emotions
> > > of adults. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 206)
> > > 
> > > Chabrier completely justifiably refers to the fact that a 
> feeling of 
> hunger, usually
> > > considered in the group of lower bodily feelings in 
> civilized man, is 
> already a
> > > fine feeling from the point of view of the nomenclature of 
> James, that 
> 
> the simple
> > > need of food can acquire a religious sense when it leads to 
> the 
> appearance of a
> > > symbolic rite of mystical communication between man and God. 
> And 
> conversely,
> > > a religious feeling, usually considered as a purely 
> spiritual emotion, 
> 
> in pious cannibals
> > > bringing human sacrifices to the gods, can scarcely he 
> referred to the 
> 
> group
> > > of higher emotions. Consequently, there is no emotion that 
> by nature 
> would be
> > > independent of the body and not connected with it. James' 
> book, The 
> VrJrieties of
> > > Religious Experience, shows incontrovertibly the extent to 
> which 
> higher feelings are
> > > closely connected with all the fibers of our body. 
> (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 
> 
> 207)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Separating emotions from the development of a system of 
> ideas and 
> establishing
> > > their dependence exclusively on organic structures, James 
> inevitably 
> comes
> > > to the fatalistic conception of emotions which encompasses 
> animals and 
> 
> man
> > > equally. The serious differences that human emotions display 
> depending 
> 
> on the
> > > era, the degree of civilization, the difference between 
> mystical 
> adoration of a knight
> > > for his lady and the noble gallantry of the seventeenth 
> century, 
> remain unexplained
> > > from the point of view of this theory. Chabrier says, if we 
> imagine 
> the infinitely
> > > rich nature of the poorest emotion, if we pay less attention 
> to the 
> imaginary psychology
> > > of single-celled organisms than to the remarkable analysis 
> of 
> novelists and
> > > writers, if we simply make use of valuable data supplied by 
> observations of people
> > > around us, we cannot but admit the complete failure of the 
> peripheral 
> theory. Actually,
> > > it is impossible to admit that simple perception of a female 
> silhouette automatically
> > > evoked an endless series of organic reactions of which could 
> be born 
> love
> > > such as the love of Dante for Beatrice if we do not 
> previously assume 
> the whole
> > > ensemble of theological, political, esthetic, and scientific 
> ideas 
> that comprised the
> > > consciousness of the genius, AJighieri. (Vygosky, 1999, p. 207)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I have atached before, to you see something, but perhaps 
> with these 
> direct quotes
> > > you can tell me more about... Mainlly the question about 
> historical, 
> cultural ideological 
> > > constitution of human emotions... If the development of this 
> could not 
> 
> be looking for
> > > in Past, any suggestions about clues in present and future 
> are very 
> welcome too.
> > > 
> > > Thank you very much.
> > > Achilles
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > >> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:07 +0000
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Oh, incredible! Thank you very much. You are a "power plant",
> > >> always working.
> > >>
> > >> Oh, "thick" have many meanings, I see. But, if it is about 
> number 
> > >> of pages, there are 157 pages.... according my Google sources...
> > >>
> > >> Then you see, please, what must I do to pay the order.
> > >>
> > >> Muito obrigado.
> > >> Achilles.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:23 -0800
> > >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > >>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> CC: VEER@fsw.leidenuniv.nl
> > >>>
> > >>> Achilles!!
> > >>>
> > >>> Voila!!   The book is in library at UC Berkeley. 
> I have ordered it. 
> Lets see
> > >>> how thick it is.
> > >>> :-)
> > >>> mike
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM, mike cole 
> <lchcmike@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> I cannot find a thing, Achilles.
> > >>>> Lets see if we can elicit some help.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rene-- Do you know of this work? Is it of enduring signicance?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > >>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Hi XMCA,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> How are you? I wish fine.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I was studding the Vygotsky's "Teaching about emotions"
> > >>>>> and at the chapter 18 (see atached) I find very interesting
> > >>>>> mentions to Chabrier - (I guess Joseph François Chabrier that
> > >>>>> wrote "Les émotions et les états organiques" in 1911). The
> > >>>>> contributions from Chabrier are linked with Vygotsky's 
> concerns> >>>>> for criticize dualistic views about emotions, 
> and to understand
> > >>>>> actual relations between emotions and
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> - consciousness
> > >>>>> - culture
> > >>>>> - ideology
> > >>>>> - history
> > >>>>> - and personality
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I search a lot for Chabrier, but there was practically 
> nothing.> >>>>> Nothing in Amazon, nothing in Google books. And 
> French Libraries
> > >>>>> don't send to Brazil.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Somebody have any suggestion, please? Any useful kind of 
> service> >>>>> to legally obtain the book? Some kind of "East 
> View" to French 
> resources?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you very much.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Achilles
> > >>>>> from Brazil.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 
> _________________________________________________________________> >>>>> Novo site do Windows Live: Novidades, dicas dos produtos e muito 
> mais.
> > >>>>> Conheça!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 
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> > >> _________________________________________________________________
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> > 
> > -- 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > 
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