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Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology



Attached is the paper martin refers to. But where is the equivalent to the
indented passage from the Soviet Psych translation and p. 310 vol 3 of
collected works (in English?). I may have vol 3 in Russian at work and can
check, but it appears to me, as indicated elsewhere in the discussion, that
this methodological/ontological chit chat comes from recent British writing,
the relationship of which to LSV's writing in cited passages is not clear to
me.
mike

On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

> Mabel,
>
> Yes, this is where LSV insists on the importance of not confusing
> epistemological issues with ontological ones. It's one of the more puzzling
> passages in Crisis, and I suspect there are some problems with the
> translation. (Is the indented passage a quotation from Hoffding? Does anyone
> have that text?) Nothing here about methodological dualism, however. I don't
> think this passage is the place to start to understand better the
> distinction between epistemology and ontology, if that is what you want to
> do.
>
> Martin
>
> You might consider taking a look here (if so tell me whether or not it
> helps):
>
> Packer, M. J., & Goicoechea, J. (2000). Sociocultural and constructivist
> theories of learning: Ontology, not just epistemology. Educational
> Psychologist, 35(4), 227-241.
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
>
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> >
> >
> > Here it is (Andy sent it to me, I have it in hardcopy Vol 3 of Vygotsky's
> Collected Works, p. 310):
> http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367
> >
> >
> > Mabel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology
> >> From: packer@duq.edu
> >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:06 -0500
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >> Mabel,
> >>
> >> I confess I don't recognize the term methodological dualism. Where are
> you finding this?
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> On Nov 14, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My question to Andy was if he could please give me some references
> about the difference-relation between ontological and methodological
> dualism? I was aimed to get some contemporary references to this discussion.
> I already had read Vygotsky. Does anyone has a suggestion, please?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you,
> >>> Mabel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:56:07 -0800
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you?
> >>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> There was a discussion of this topic around your MCA article a while
> back,
> >>>> Michael. Mabel might be able to use some of the specific techniques,
> which,
> >>>> I recall, were not too demading in terms of technology, to find a
> bridge to
> >>>> what her advisors expect.
> >>>>
> >>>> Martin's sources are right on. But Mabel is going to have to negotiate
> the
> >>>> rocky
> >>>> shoals of her own institutional situation, and invoking XMCA is not
> likely
> >>>> to win her a lot of friends!!
> >>>>
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> In the following piece, we show how emotion (as evidenced in prosody)
> is a
> >>>>> resource for the coordination of social action. Michael
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cult Stud of Sci Educ
> >>>>> DOI 10.1007/s11422-009-9203-8
> >>>>> Solidarity and conflict: aligned and misaligned prosody
> >>>>> as a transactional resource in intra- and intercultural
> >>>>> communication involving power differences
> >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth Æ Kenneth Tobin
> >>>>>
> >>>>> here
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2009-11-14, at 6:55 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm going to ignore Andy's request to ignore his message to Mabel,
> because
> >>>>> I'm sure Mabel is not the only person being told this sort of thing.
> The
> >>>>> claim, I suppose, is that emotion is a subjective experience, and
> therefore
> >>>>> something mental, internal, personal, private and so inaccessible to
> other
> >>>>> people, including the researcher, who has access only to the external
> >>>>> 'expression' of that emotion, on the face, in movements, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Nonsense. How to argue against that view? Take a look at Joe de
> Rivera's
> >>>>> work on emotions as interpersonal movements, towards or away from
> people on
> >>>>> three interpersonal dimensions of intimacy, openness, and status.
> Read Hall
> >>>>> and Cobey (1976) on emotion as transformation of the world. Read
> Mead's
> >>>>> Mind, Self and Society where he challenges Darwin, insisting that "we
> >>>>> cannot approach them [emotions] from the point of view of expressing
> a
> >>>>> content in the mind of the individual" (p. 17) because to do so
> presumes a
> >>>>> dualism between consciousness and the biological organism.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> These are some resources that come immediately to my mind. What can
> others
> >>>>> out there recommend?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You have good muses Mabel (Vygotsky and Marx), pity you
> >>>>>> don't have better supervisors. Your approach, studying
> >>>>>> microsituations as social, is Vygotsky's approach too, I
> >>>>>> think, and excellent one, that is often, I fear, not well
> >>>>>> understood. I am probably the last person to ask about that
> >>>>>> kind of problem as I have a devil of a problem making myself
> >>>>>> understood. Others will know the answers to your questions
> >>>>>> better than me, too. But I will mention a few suggestions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My supervisors are questioning now, that I do not study emotions,
> but
> >>>>>>> "the expression of emotions". I know how to solidify my argument in
> this
> >>>>>>> bit, but could you please give me some references of where should I
> read
> >>>>>>> about the difference-relation between ontological and
> methodological
> >>>>>>> dualism?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I guess you have already read Vygotsky's comments on
> >>>>>> ontological vs methodological/epistemological dualism:
> >>>>>> http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you use Google on this one, you will probably find a page
> >>>>>> where I am being attacked by someone called Neville for
> >>>>>> failing to make this distinction. I am far from sure of the
> >>>>>> value of that exchange but you are welcome to read it. I
> >>>>>> would not attempt a short summary of this issue.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I am not sure what you are being accused of about emotions.
> >>>>>> Martha Nussbaum is a Critical Theorist who writes good stuff
> >>>>>> about emotions. And of course everyone reads Antonio
> >>>>>> Damassio, with his distinction between feelings and
> >>>>>> emotions. Certainly, emotions are only present in
> >>>>>> consciousness thanks to their "interpretation" by culturally
> >>>>>> acquired concepts.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ""the expression of emotions" is a strange expression to me.
> >>>>>> Are they using "emotions" to refer to forms of consciousness
> >>>>>> which are "expressed" in high blood pressure, etc? Or are
> >>>>>> they using "emotions" to refer to physiological conditions,
> >>>>>> which are "expressed" in the character of behavior. I don't
> >>>>>> understand. I am sure others will know. Sounds like a
> >>>>>> template accusation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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