# Re: [xmca] Why "Natural" Numbers?

Oxford English Dictionary traces the term back to the French in 1675, and says the group *sometimes* includes zero. Certainly when I was taught this stuff, integers were the natural numbers (1, 2, 3, ...) plus zero. I guess the erosion of the distinction has just been by common usage. I am sure many would agree with you that there is nothing natural about zero.
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a

David Kellogg wrote:
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I have a lecture to give tomorrow on Davydov and Schmittau, and I just realized that I have not the faintest idea why the "natural" numbers are called that. I know why the reals are real and the rationals are rational and why the irrationals are irrational. But I haven't a clue what is "natural" about the naturals. A quick trip through Wikipedia is even more confusing: it turns out that the canonical set of naturals used in mathematics includes zero! Now what the devil is "natural" about the number zero? I suppose a stupid answer is that "natural" numbers are connected to "natural" meaning, the sort of meaning that Vygotsky talks about when he speaks of theories of meaning that do not distinguish between language meanings and "meaning" that we find in nature (just as there are acoustic theories of phonetics that do not distinguish between language sounds and those that we find in nature). But somehow that suggests that counting is somehow more characteristic of animal behavior than measuring. That can't be right. It's easy to think of examples of animals eyeballing a distance before they attempt to leap it, and Vygotsky himself talks about how a dog can distinguish between two heaps of treats without counting them. (Interestingly, if you look at Paula's video of the eight year old subject doing the Vygotsky blocks test you'll find lots of examples of measuring but no examples of counting!) David Kellogg
```Seoul National University of Education

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