Hi Andy--
I am sure others are far more qualified than I am. But in the
19th century i would have Durkheim, Mauss and Bergson, in the
early 20th century (if we are stopping with LSV or thereabouts)
Wallon.
I am sure I am missing a ton. Janet and many others were influential
in terms of social origins of higher psych functions, but would have to
go find Valsiner Guided Mind book (which is all about social origins
ideas avant de LSV) to see what is there.
Once we get later, all hell breaks loose.
mike
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
I know little of the French Sociological School, Mike. If you think
the diagram would be OK with this addition, please send me suggested
additions. Would it be Durkheim, Mauss and Bourdieu? It's quite easy
to modify the diagram.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
So now we have 3d. Thanks all.
I have a "draft" response somewhere in this long string.
Was it, perhaps, a query about where the French fit in?
Both 19th and 20th century seem relevant
mike
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:07 PM, David H Kirshner
<dkirsh@lsu.edu <mailto:dkirsh@lsu.edu>> wrote:
Very cool.
Thanks Jonas, thanks Andy.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
[mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:47 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
Jonas, The technical manager at marxists.org
<http://marxists.org>, has stepped in
and written some Javascript for us, and thanks to Bruce
Jones who has loaded the half-dozen successive versions of
this thing, we now have a diagram with longlasting "tool
tip" explanations for each writer, as well as a Wikipedia link:
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
If anyone wants to use this in their teaching, but doesn't
want to swallow my version of history, it is quite easy to
change the text in the boxes and if you can take the trouble
the whole thing is easily modified to taste. If anyone wants
to do that I am happy to advise. ...
Andy
Andy Blunden wrote:
You are quite correct, Juha. Since I have been browsing
the advice pages
I have been told exactly what you say. Also, people
using FireFox will
not see it at all. I have sent Bruce a version using the
title=tag
instead which should fix that. The various Javascript
fixes that people
suggest are really complicated, definitely for experts
only, so at this
point, we will have to put up with it. Of course, if you
click the name,
you get the full wikipedia story.
Andy
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
Juha Siltala wrote:
Hi,
There is no way to control the timeout that I'm
aware of. I suppose the
information should probably be displayed in a
javascript popup or
something like that.
Using the image ALT text in this way is actually a
case of creative
misuse of a standard HTML accessibility feature: ALT
text was originally
designed to be shown *instead* of the image for
those who are using a
non-graphical browsers such as Lynx, not for showing
extra information.
In the recent years, the most common non-standard
use for ALT text has
been many webcomic artists' habit of inserting an
extra joke in it -
check out the wonderful XKCD for example, at
http://xkcd.com/ .
Another case of users putting technology into uses
never envisioned by
its designers I guess. :-)
Cheers,
JS
On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 18:42 -0600, David H Kirshner
wrote:
Andy, I replied off-line, but your response was
intended for on-line, so
I'm forwarding to the list. ...David
David H Kirshner wrote:
Much appreciate the graphic, Andy.
Unfortunately the accompanying text lingers
for only a few seconds
before needing to be refreshed by moving
cursor out of and back into
box. Is this something that can be
controlled on your end?
Andy replied: Yes, very annoying, isn't it
David. I have searched
around the internet, but so far I haven't found
any way of
controlling this time. Any HTML or Java
whizzkids out there?
Andy
-----Original Message-----
Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.ne
<mailto:ablunden@mira.ne>
t>
To Sent by:
"eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" xmca-bounces@webe
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
r.ucsd.edu <http://r.ucsd.edu>
cc
Subject 11/11/2009 01:18
Re: [xmca] Arne
Raeithel's
AM
"genealogy"
Please respond to
ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
; Please respond
to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.
edu>
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
I replaced the PDF with an HTML version,
which gives you
little 50-word summaries of what each
contributed to CHAT
(when you hover) and a link to their
Wikipedia page (when
you click).
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it
seems to me that these
diagrams
are trying to do two different things at
the same time. One is to
provide helpful contextual information
to anyone reading LSV's texts.
I
think this itself is a valuable
enterprise, one that compensates a
little for the minimal teaching of the
history of the discipline in
psychology, at least. A diagram serving
this purpose need go no
further
towards the present than the end of
Vygotsky's life. And for this the
lines to and from Vygotsky himself would
be redundant; he would be
connected to everyone.
A second task, and a distinct one in my
view, would be a diagram
indicating forms of, and influences on,
CHAT today. Here people like
Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not
play a role - their
influence
would be entirely mediated by LSV. And
such a diagram would be more
detailed about the present: for example,
the last row of your diagram
is
almost exclusively people working in the
US; it would be helpful to
see
here Scandinavian, German, British, etc.
schools of CHAT.
I'm not volunteering you for the work
(nor do I have time to do it
myself), just trying to think through
the role of this kind of
representational reconstruction of
intellectual history.
Martin
On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy
Blunden wrote:
Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably
better for people to produce a
multiplicity of different
perspectives, than try to produce a
master
view. There are so many angles!
Lewin is interesting. Not only was
he close to the Frankfurt School,
but he also worked with Vygotsky,
and I suspect this is where
Vygotsky
got a lot of his Hegel from.
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, I think the map is
interesting and useful. But how
about
this.
I was exploring further on the
virtual library that I mentioned in
a
prior message. It turns out
there's quite a lot there in
English,
not
only German. I had been enjoying
myself browsing through scans of
the
papers of Carl Stumpf, who was
teacher of both Kurt Lewin and
Edmund
Husserl. Teacher-student seems
to me one important connection
between
figures. Lewin apparently had
regular contact with the Frankfurt
School (connection of
'colleague') before leaving for
the US, where
he would have found himself
transplanted into the new milieu of
behaviorism.
I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
Martin
On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy
Blunden wrote:
I've been thinking ... What
these diagrams lack is any
information
about why a writer is
included and what they
contributed to CHAT.
Would anyone on the list
like to put their hand up to
write a
paragraph (max 100 words
probably) on a writer on the
diagram
explaining their
contribution to CHAT and
their sources? I would
be
happy to collate them and
fix the essays to hyperlinks
on the
names
of each writer? ... if
others do most of the
writing ... then the
diagram might be genuinely
useful.
Andy
Andy Blunden wrote:
Mmmmm. I didn't sign up
for an intellecual map
of the universe
here! The French
Revolution produced a
mass of political theory
of
course, but also, it is
widely regarded as the
inspiration for
Classical German
Philosophy, which is one
of our sources.
World War One? I don't
know, but I have thought
in the past that
what Vygotsky called
"The Crisis in
Psychology", viz., the
myriad
of conflicting currents
in psychology suddenly
contesting each
other after WW1, was
some kind of reaction to
WW1 and the Russian
Revolution.
The Reformation and the
Industrial Revolution
deserve mention
somewhere too, in the
atlas of ideas. ...
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Hmmmmm, like the
French revolution or
world war I for example?
:-)
mike
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009
at 4:18 PM, Andy
Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
wrote:
Both Arne's and
mine are listed on
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html
and both are in that
directory. I too
would be interested
in seeing some other
versions.
Something might
emerge out of the crowd.
It is interesting
isn't that it is a
quite small number
of ...
what
do you say? ...
millieux? events?
movements? which
produced
the
main
ideas, via a whole
mass of individual
writers.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
I think your
pictured genealogy
is interesting, Andy. I
thought
Arne's was too,
and I a sure others
can make interesting
modifications.
If anyone could do
this in three D it could
get
really fascinating.
Part of what
makes for the
partiality of any
such attempt
is
the
position of the
creator. Arne was a
radical cultural
historical
cognitive
scientist of the
70's-90's
(roughly), an
importatant odd
hybrid and
unusually
nice guy.
Maturana, who
is on his list, with
Varela, were central
figures
on bringing
dynamic systems
into the discussion
but you do not know
about
him just
as many of us
do not know some of
the figures you name,
and
the
connections
such as
Dilthey-Wundt or
Mead-Dilthey-American
pragmatism are
poorly known
altogether, but
fascinating
(to
me!)
in their
implications.
And, of course,
the historical
events that various
of us
might
highlight as
most relevant
are going to vary as
well.
Thanks for the
new tool to think
with. I'll try to get
Arne's
genealogy put
up where yours
is and perhaps
others will
contribute from
their
perspectives.
mike
On Sun, Nov 8,
2009 at 6:42 AM,
Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
wrote:
Well, here's
my shot at it:
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
I have tried
to deal with your
very valid point,
Martin,
that
it is
more the
milieux than
individuals, but I
have also just
omitted a
billion
possible arrows so
it is readable. It needs
more
than one
person to do
this.
Andy
Martin
Packer wrote:
My
question about the
map is what the links
represent. After
all, one
scientist or
philosopher may
accept the
ideas or
another,
or react against
them, or modify them, or
misunderstand
them.
Seems to me each of
these is a different
link.
Also, a
family
tree indicates two
parents for every
progeny,
where
Arne's
genealogy seemingly
shows spontaneous
generation - one
figure
alone can produce
another. And wouldn't we
want to
have a
way to
map the milieus
within which people were
working?
Perhaps
something along the
lines of the social
fields that
Bourdieu was
fond of
sketching, but with
an added historical
dimension.
Martin
On Nov
4, 2009, at 1:44 AM,
Andy Blunden wrote:
To
tell the truth
Louise, there are a
couple of
names I
don't know and half
a dozen I know so little
about
I
don't
know
why they're included
... or not. Two of
the
three
"outcomes" are
people who think
humans are a
type
of
computer, so I am
not surpised that this
genealogy is
odd to
me.
But there is sooooo
much out there. So much
to
read. :(
Up
till a few weeks ago
I thought that starting
with
Descartes was not
justified, but I
take that
back
now. But
somehow, Rene's
nemesis, Aristotle,
needs to be
included as
well.
I
don't know anything
about Vico, but I find
Locke,
Berkeley
and
Leibniz to be rather
peripheral to *our*
story.
Kant
certainly deserves
an important place, but
I
think his
nemesis, Goethe, may
be more important
for us.
Fichte is actually
the inventor of
Activity as
a
philosophical
concept (I just
learnt that Hegel
asked
to be
buried next to
Fichte; like Goethe,
very under
recognized in
the
Anglophone world).
Hegel is the
inventor of Cultural
Psychology,
so
agreed there.
I
think Stirner and
Mach are total
diversions
from our
tradition. But maybe
someone can explain
to me
their
role.
Wundt and Dilthey
are important,
though I don't
know
them well.
Feuerbach is a bit
of a footnote, but
if you're
going to
have
Feuerbach, you've
gotta have Moses Hess,
author of
"Philosophy of the
Deed", and
inspiration for
"Theses on
Feuerbach". Of
course if you think
Frege,
Russell
and
Turing
are
important to the
genealogy of CHAT, then
you
wouldn't
want
Hess.
MARX, obviously, in
CAPS.
And
I would have lines
from a whole bunch of
people
going to
Dewey, as well as
Peirce and Mead, but
even
though Peirce
was
the elder, I don't
think you can give him
such
priority.
Dewey surely was the
leader. Arguable.
And
where are the
Gestaltists? Again,
not for
computer
cognition, but there
needs to be lines
between
Goethe and
Kant
and then to von
Ehrenfels, and on to
Koehler
and Co.
Russian linguists
like Potebnya, but I
don't
know
where they
came
from.
And
these threads are
all tied together
with LS
Vygotsky, yes?
Freud has to be
mentioned (I forget his
sources),
with
arrows to Luria. And
after Vygotsky and Luria
you
have ANL
and
thus to present day
people,
I
guess, you can't
leave out Piaget, and I
don't
know
Piaget's sources.
I
know some people
rate Merleau-Ponty,
but if
you're
going
to
give Merleau-Pony a
seat, you have to put in
Lukacs and
Horkheimer. I guess
Habermas for discourse
ethics, etc.
I
have no idea why
Husserl and
Heidegger get a
mention. I my
humble opinion, as
clever as they might be,
their
impact on
Activity Theory has
only been negative.
I
have no idea why
Bergson is
mentioned: was he
a
source for
Piaget? Don't know
why Nietzsche is there.
Interesting guy,
but
so are many others.
Why von Uexhill?
I
agree that
Wittgenstein rates a
mention,
though
I don't
know
how much of a source
he has been for us.
He
is some
kind
of version of
Activity Theory.
Frege, Russell and
Turing are nothing to do
with
CHAT. What
about anthropologists??
Never heard of Maturana.
That's my reaction,
Andy
Louise Hawkins wrote:
Andy,
I remember seeing
this diagram a number of
years ago,
and I found it
useful as a big picture
diagram to
get my
head around the
significant theorist.
Regards
Louise Hawkins
Lecturer - School of
Management &
Information
Systems
Faculty Business &
Informatics
Building 19/Room 3.38
Rockhampton Campus
CQUniversity
Ph: +617 4923 2768
Fax: +617 4930 9729
-----Original
Message-----
From: Andy Blunden
[mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>]
Sent: Wednesday, 4
November
2009 01:05 PM
To: eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity
Subject: [xmca] Arne
Raeithel's "genealogy"
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
I never found this
map very useful to be
honest.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Have you found
Arne Raeithel's
"genealogy" of
cultural-historical,
activity theory
thinkers
from
several years
back. I am sure it is
somewhere at
lchc.ucsd.edu
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>.
Perhaps you
(and
Andy,
and.....) could
update it with
more detail.
Hegel generated so much
that
has
been
"laundered" by
subsequent "original"
thinkers its
totally amazing,
and ditto Mead (whose
writings i
know far better,
although very
inadequately).
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