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Re: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"



I know little of the French Sociological School, Mike. If you think the diagram would be OK with this addition, please send me suggested additions. Would it be Durkheim, Mauss and Bourdieu? It's quite easy to modify the diagram.

Andy

mike cole wrote:
So now we have 3d. Thanks all.
I have a "draft" response somewhere in this long string.
Was it, perhaps, a query about where the French fit in?
Both 19th and 20th century seem relevant
mike

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 6:07 PM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
Very cool.
Thanks Jonas, thanks Andy.
David


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:47 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Jonas, The technical manager at marxists.org, has stepped in
and written some Javascript for us, and thanks to Bruce
Jones who has loaded the half-dozen successive versions of
this thing, we now have a diagram with longlasting "tool
tip" explanations for each writer, as well as a Wikipedia link:

  http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm

If anyone wants to use this in their teaching, but doesn't
want to swallow my version of history, it is quite easy to
change the text in the boxes and if you can take the trouble
the whole thing is easily modified to taste. If anyone wants
to do that I am happy to advise. ...

Andy

Andy Blunden wrote:
You are quite correct, Juha. Since I have been browsing the advice pages
I have been told exactly what you say. Also, people using FireFox will
not see it at all. I have sent Bruce a version using the title=tag
instead which should fix that. The various Javascript fixes that people
suggest are really complicated, definitely for experts only, so at this
point, we will have to put up with it. Of course, if you click the name,
you get the full wikipedia story.

Andy

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm


Juha Siltala wrote:
Hi,

There is no way to control the timeout that I'm aware of. I suppose the
information should probably be displayed in a javascript popup or
something like that.

Using the image ALT text in this way is actually a case of creative
misuse of a standard HTML accessibility feature: ALT text was originally
designed to be shown *instead* of the image for those who are using a
non-graphical browsers such as Lynx, not for showing extra information.
In the recent years, the most common non-standard use for ALT text has
been many webcomic artists' habit of inserting an extra joke in it -
check out the wonderful XKCD for example, at http://xkcd.com/ .

Another case of users putting technology into uses never envisioned by
its designers I guess. :-)

Cheers,
JS

On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 18:42 -0600, David H Kirshner wrote:
Andy, I replied off-line, but your response was intended for on-line, so
I'm forwarding to the list. ...David

David H Kirshner wrote:
Much appreciate the graphic, Andy.
Unfortunately the accompanying text lingers for only a few seconds
before needing to be refreshed by moving cursor out of and back into
box. Is this something that can be controlled on your end?
Andy replied: Yes, very annoying, isn't it David. I have searched
around the internet, but so far I haven't found any way of
controlling this time. Any HTML or Java whizzkids out there?
Andy

-----Original Message-----


             Andy Blunden

             <ablunden@mira.ne

             t>
To              Sent by:                  "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity"               xmca-bounces@webe         <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

             r.ucsd.edu
cc


Subject              11/11/2009 01:18          Re: [xmca] Arne
Raeithel's

             AM                        "genealogy"





             Please respond to

             ablunden@mira.net

             ; Please respond

                    to

              "eXtended Mind,

                 Culture,

                 Activity"

             <xmca@weber.ucsd.

                   edu>









   http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm

I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you
little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT
(when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when
you click).

Andy

Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these
diagrams
are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to
provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's texts.
I
think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a
little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in
psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no
further
towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for this the
lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be
connected to everyone.

A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram
indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people like
Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their
influence
would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more
detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your diagram
is
almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to
see
here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.

I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it
myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of
representational reconstruction of intellectual history.

Martin


On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:

Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a
multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a master
view. There are so many angles!

Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt School,
but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is where
Vygotsky
got a lot of his Hegel from.

Andy

Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about
this.
I was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in
a
prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English,
not
only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of
the
papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and
Edmund
Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection
between
figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where
he would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of
behaviorism.
I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
Martin
On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would
be
happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the
names
of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the
diagram might be genuinely useful.

Andy

Andy Blunden wrote:
Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory
of
course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
World War One?  I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad
of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian
Revolution.
The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
:-)
mike

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

  Both Arne's and mine are listed on
  http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
  directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other
versions.
  Something might emerge out of the crowd.

  It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ...
what
  do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced
the
main
  ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.

  Andy

  mike cole wrote:

      I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
thought
      Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
      modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could
get
      really fascinating.

      Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt
is
the
      position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
historical
      cognitive scientist of the
      70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and
unusually
      nice guy.
      Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
figures
      on bringing
      dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know
about
      him just
      as many of us do not know some of the figures you name,
and
the
      connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
      pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating
(to
me!)
      in their implications.

      And, of course, the historical events that various of us
might
      highlight as
      most relevant are going to vary as well.

      Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get
Arne's
      genealogy put
      up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from
their
      perspectives.
      mike

      On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net
      <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
      <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

         Well, here's my shot at it:
           http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
         I have tried to deal with your very valid point,
Martin,
that
      it is
         more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
omitted a
         billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs
more
than one
         person to do this.

         Andy
         Martin Packer wrote:

             My question about the map is what the links
represent. After
             all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
ideas or
             another, or react against them, or modify them, or
      misunderstand
             them. Seems to me each of these is a different
link.
Also, a
             family tree indicates two parents for every
progeny,
where
             Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
generation - one
             figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
want to
      have a
             way to map the milieus within which people were
working?
      Perhaps
             something along the lines of the social fields that
      Bourdieu was
             fond of sketching, but with an added historical
dimension.

             Martin

             On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:

                 To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
names I
                 don't know and half a dozen I know so little
about
I
      don't
                 know why they're included ... or not. Two of
the
three
                 "outcomes" are people who think humans are a
type
of
                 computer, so I am not surpised that this
genealogy is
      odd to
                 me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much
to
      read. :(

                 Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting
with
                 Descartes was not justified, but I take that
back
      now. But
                 somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
      included as
                 well.

                 I don't know anything about Vico, but I find
Locke,
      Berkeley
                 and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our*
story.
                 Kant certainly deserves an important place, but
I
      think his
                 nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.

                 Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as
a
                 philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel
asked
      to be
                 buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
      recognized in
                 the Anglophone world).

                 Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology,
so
      agreed there.

                 I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
from our
                 tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me
their
      role.

                 Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't
know
      them well.

                 Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
going to
                 have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
author of
                 "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
"Theses on
                 Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege,
Russell
and
      Turing
                 are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then
you
wouldn't
                 want Hess.

                 MARX, obviously, in CAPS.

                 And I would have lines from a whole bunch of
people
      going to
                 Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
though Peirce
                 was the elder, I don't think you can give him
such
      priority.
                 Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.

                 And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
computer
                 cognition, but there needs to be lines between
Goethe and
                 Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to
Koehler
and Co.

                 Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't
know
      where they
                 came from.

                 And these threads are all tied together with LS
      Vygotsky, yes?

                 Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his
sources),
with
                 arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria
you
      have ANL
                 and thus to present day people,

                 I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I
don't
know
                 Piaget's sources.

                 I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
you're
      going
                 to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
      Lukacs and
                 Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
ethics, etc.

                 I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
      mention. I my
                 humble opinion, as clever as they might be,
their
      impact on
                 Activity Theory has only been negative.

                 I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he
a
      source for
                 Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
      Interesting guy,
                 but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?

                 I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention,
though
I don't
                 know how much of a source he has been for us.
He
is some
                 kind of version of Activity Theory.

                 Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do
with
      CHAT. What
                 about anthropologists??

                 Never heard of Maturana.

                 That's my reaction,

                 Andy

                 Louise Hawkins wrote:

                     Andy,
                     I remember seeing this diagram a number of
years ago,
                     and I found it useful as a big picture
diagram to
      get my
                     head around the significant theorist.
                     Regards
                     Louise Hawkins
                     Lecturer - School of Management &
Information
Systems
                     Faculty Business & Informatics
                     Building 19/Room 3.38
                     Rockhampton Campus
                     CQUniversity
                     Ph: +617 4923 2768
                     Fax: +617 4930 9729
                      -----Original Message-----
                     From: Andy Blunden
[mailto:ablunden@mira.net
      <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
                     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
      <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
                     2009 01:05 PM
                     To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
                     Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
                     I never found this map very useful to be
honest.
                     Andy
                     mike cole wrote:

                         Have you found Arne Raeithel's
"genealogy" of
                         cultural-historical, activity theory
thinkers
      from
                         several years back. I am sure it is
somewhere at
                         lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
      <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
                         <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you
(and
Andy,
                         and.....) could update it with
                         more detail. Hegel generated so much
that
has
      been
                         "laundered" by subsequent "original"
thinkers its
                         totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
writings i
                         know far better, although very
inadequately).


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                 Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
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         Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
Meshcheryakov,
         Ilyenkov $20 ea

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
  Ilyenkov $20 ea


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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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Ilyenkov
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Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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