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Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT. Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would be happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the names of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the diagram might be genuinely useful.


Andy Blunden wrote:
Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.

World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian Revolution.

The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...


mike cole wrote:
Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Both Arne's and mine are listed on
    http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
    directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other versions.
    Something might emerge out of the crowd.

    It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what
    do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main
    ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.


    mike cole wrote:

        I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought
        Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
        modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
        really fascinating.

        Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the
        position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
        cognitive scientist of the
        70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
        nice guy.
        Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures
        on bringing
        dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
        him just
        as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
        connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
        pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!)
        in their implications.

        And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
        highlight as
        most relevant are going to vary as well.

        Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
        genealogy put
        up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:

           Well, here's my shot at it:
           I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that
        it is
more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just omitted a billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more than one
           person to do this.

           Martin Packer wrote:

My question about the map is what the links represent. After
               all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
               another, or react against them, or modify them, or
them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. Also, a
               family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation - one
               figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to
        have a
               way to map the milieus within which people were working?
               something along the lines of the social fields that
        Bourdieu was
               fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.


               On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:

To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of names I
                   don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I
                   know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
                   "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
                   computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is
        odd to
                   me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
        read. :(

                   Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
                   Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
        now. But
                   somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
        included as

                   I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
                   and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.

                   Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
        think his
                   nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.

                   Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
                   philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked
        to be
                   buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
        recognized in
                   the Anglophone world).

                   Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
        agreed there.

                   I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
                   tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their

                   Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know
        them well.

Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're going to have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, author of "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for "Theses on
                   Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and
are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you wouldn't
                   want Hess.

                   MARX, obviously, in CAPS.

                   And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
        going to
Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though Peirce
                   was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
                   Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.

                   And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
cognition, but there needs to be lines between Goethe and Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler and Co.

                   Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
        where they
                   came from.

                   And these threads are all tied together with LS
        Vygotsky, yes?

                   Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
                   arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
        have ANL
                   and thus to present day people,

                   I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
                   Piaget's sources.

                   I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're
                   to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
        Lukacs and
Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics, etc.

                   I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
        mention. I my
                   humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
        impact on
                   Activity Theory has only been negative.

                   I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
        source for
                   Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
        Interesting guy,
                   but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?

I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I don't know how much of a source he has been for us. He is some
                   kind of version of Activity Theory.

                   Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
        CHAT. What
                   about anthropologists??

                   Never heard of Maturana.

                   That's my reaction,


                   Louise Hawkins wrote:

I remember seeing this diagram a number of years ago,
                       and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to
        get my
                       head around the significant theorist.
                       Louise Hawkins
Lecturer - School of Management & Information Systems
                       Faculty Business & Informatics
                       Building 19/Room 3.38
                       Rockhampton Campus
                       Ph: +617 4923 2768
                       Fax: +617 4930 9729
                        -----Original Message-----
                       From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
                       2009 01:05 PM
                       To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
                       Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
                       I never found this map very useful to be honest.
                       mike cole wrote:

                           Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
                           cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers
several years back. I am sure it is somewhere at
                           lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
                           <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
                           and.....) could update it with
                           more detail. Hegel generated so much that has
"laundered" by subsequent "original" thinkers its totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose writings i
                           know far better, although very inadequately).

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                   Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
                   Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
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           Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
           Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
           Ilyenkov $20 ea

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-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
    Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
    Ilyenkov $20 ea

Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20 ea

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