[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation
Hi Michael ,
Thanks first , then my apologies because of days being off and away from discussions :
1. What I wanted to convey to Martin was this idea when we have , say , *Derrida Dictionary* , it quite clearly means we should move within the limits drawn by it ; supposing and ascertaining it's *valid* and globally/universally/collectively accepted , it will not be so legitimate to opt for some arbitrary replacements even with any resort to this or that reference/source ; just we can repudiate it maybe all along with the philosophy supporting and behind it . What Boris says supports the idea . It's not *introspection* . It's sort of *get/digest , returning back somehow actively* ; And we have at least two big volumes of books read to the end about it . You step on dry ground , the imprint is paler because it's more resistant , vice versa . This is the simplest example L gives. With organisms , there are processes and changes within the recipient, sort of changes are nessary for it/her to ensure maintenace and survival and this is exactly where
everything pours down on poor L because of his so-called inactivity/inagency ; while this kind of return could not be a *passive* one for many many reasons referring back to the *becoming* of phenomena .
2. I don't know German but from the hints you have offered one can infer there is affinity of implications and significance relating to [[radical and oppositive difference between the original and
that which is reflected, i.e., the Spiegelbild.]] . I mean between L's and your interpretation . Leontiev never said the reflected [in the sense of reified] [the reflection in actuality does not stay there standstill so that you can overlap it with the original if one yota falls down proving a relative mismatch ] is the same as the original . Incidentally I remember your own assertion on one occasion to the effect you , after so many years , had come to grasp the full meaning of *moment* just at that peculiar occasion . I mean if we take into consideration the now dominant activity disappearing from the scene , action taking its place dragging that former activity within its sphere of influence , so on so forth , we can concretely figure out what unexpected changes might occur when some genuine reflected ideality reaches its endpoint . And finally what will be *dialectics* of reality vs ideality . And what work (activity being a twin of) does with
World as well as with Man Himself .
Martin's problem was with Russian etymology , apparently solved ; there remains choice of reflexion by Kant .
With very best wishes
Haydi
--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
From: Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation
To: haydizulfei@yahoo.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 8:02 PM
Hi there,
the German word is interesting, because "Wider" means against,
opposite, and is used as such in all other composite nouns. There is a
"Spiegelung" and the verb "spiegeln."
If the construction is as it is in the other words, the "wider" may
actually indicate a radical and oppositive difference between the original and
that which is reflected, i.e., the Spiegelbild.
Kant uses "Reflexion"
michael
On 5-Jan-09, at 11:06 AM, Haydi Zulfei wrote:
Martin,
What do you want to explicate ?
You have had this :
[[Reflection (German: Widerspiegelung; Russian: otrazhenie)
"A basic concept of the materialist theory of knowledge and its core -the
theory of reflection. The dialectical materialist theory of reflection
distinguishes between reflection in inorganic nature, on the one hand, and in
living nature and social life, on the other, where it is active and is exercised
by highly organised systems possessing an independent force of reaction, such as
biological metabolism at the lowest level and the deliberate creative,
anticipative and transformative activity of man at the highest.
In inorganic nature reflection is the property of things to reproduce, under
the influence of other things, such traces, imprints and reactions whose
structure accords with some quality of the things that exercise the influence.
But these imprints are not utilised by the things themselves. In living nature
they are used for self-preservation and self-adaptation, e.g., the irritability
of plants and simple organisms.
Psychic reflection develops with the appearance and evolution of the nervous
system and brain, through which the higher nervous conditioned reflex and
psychic activity is exercised, securing the behavioural orientation and
regulation of a subject-organism in the environment. The psychic reflection of
men and animals has two sides: 1) content and 2) form, i.e., the mode of
existence, expression and transformation of this content. Human knowledge
differs in quality from the psychic reflection of animals because it is social
by nature" (Frolov, 1984: 353).]]
Neither Frolov was out of his senses in giving the definition nor Charles
Tolman . What else do you want ? You can come up with your critical points on
the definition and we will then understand what your original idea is . Reading
the first line takes you right to your destination .
You have read many times and times :
*Ideality is the subjective reflection of the objective world* . Your reasons
why this is not true/practically logical # formally logical , the latter you
renounced recently . My problem is the *genesis* or *genetics* of *culture* .
It's everything ; but where does it come from ? You think I'm too alien
to this idea I've not got my answer so far ?? BTW *reflection as you do know
*does have effect* but that's what entails from *reflection* ; That effect
is ultimate *reification* , the endpoint of one round of *ideality* , at the
level of analysis .
With Very Best Wishes
Haydi
--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Kant and the Strange Situation
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:10 AM
Thanks, Ed. I'm reading the dictionary definition of 'reflection,'
and
there's nothing even close to 'having an effect.' But I've
surfed around and
the word is indeed translated as reflection. Does your Russian dictionary
provide any more detail?
Martin
On 1/4/09 9:12 PM, "Ed Wall" <ewall@umich.edu> wrote:
> Martin
>
> It appears the root is more or less
>
> отрaжáть (отрaзить)
>
>
> and, at least according to my dictionary, has the sense of reflecting
> or having an effect. However, my qualifications are dated.
>
> Ed
>
> On Jan 4, 2009, at 7:01 PM, Martin Packer wrote:
>
>> At the end of last year several of us were trying to figure out
>> whether
>> 'reflection' is a good term to translate the way Vygotsky and
>> leontiev wrote
>> about 'mental' activity. Michael Roth pointed out that the
German
>> word that
>> Marx used was Widerspiegeln rather than Reflektion (see below). I
>> don't
>> think anyone identified the Russian word that was used. I still
>> haven't
>> found time to trace the word in Vygotsky's texts, English and
>> Russian. But
>> an article by Charles Tolman suggests that the Russian term was
>> 'otrazhenie.' Online translators don't like this word:
can any
>> Russian
>> speakers suggest how it might be translated?
>>
>> Reflection (German: Widerspiegelung; Russian: otrazhenie)
>>
>> Tolman, C.W. (1988). The basic vocabulary of Activity Theory. Activity
>> Theory, 1, 14-20.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> On 10/25/08 12:40 PM, "Wolff-Michael Roth"
<mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Martin,
>>>
>>> Marx does indeed use the term "widerspiegeln" in the
sentence you
>>> cite.
>>>
>>> Das Gehirn der
>>> Privatproduzenten spiegelt diesen doppelten gesellschaftlichen
>>> Charakter ihrer Privatarbeiten nur wider in den Formen, welche im
>>> praktischen Verkehr, im Produktenaustausch erscheinen - den
>>> gesellschaftlich
>>> nützlichen Charakter ihrer Privatarbeiten also in
>>> der Form, daß das Arbeitsprodukt nützlich sein muß, und zwar
für
>>> andre - den gesellschaftlichen Charakter der Gleichheit der
>>> verschiedenartigen
>>> Arbeiten in der Form des gemeinsamen Wertcharakters
>>> dieser materiell verschiednen Dinge, der Arbeitsprodukte.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the Duden, the reference work of German language says that
there
>>> are 2 different senses. One is reflection as in a mirror, the
other
>>> one that something brings to expression. In this context, I do not
>>> see Marx draw on the mirror idea.
>>>
>>> For those who have trouble, perhaps the analogy with mathematical
>>> functions. In German, what a mathematical function does is
>>> "abbilden," which is, provide a projection of, or
reflection, or
>>> whatever. You have the word Bild, image, picture in the verb. But
>>> when you look at functions, only y = f(x) = x, or -x gives you
what
>>> you would get in the mirror analogy. You get very different things
>>> when you use different functions, log functions, etc. Then the
>>> relationship between the points on a line no longer is the same in
>>> the "image", that is, the target domain.
>>>
>>> We sometimes see the word "refraction" in the works of
Russian
>>> psychologists, which may be better than reflection. It allows you
to
>>> think of looking at the world through a kaleidoscope, and you get
all
>>> sorts of things, none of which look like "the real
thing."
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25-Oct-08, at 9:01 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
>>>
>>> Michael,
>>>
>>> Here's one example from Marx, and several from Leontiev, if we
can
>>> get into
>>> the Russian too.
>>>
>>> "The twofold social character of the labour of the individual
>>> appears to
>>> him, when *reflected* in his brain, only under those forms which
are
>>> impressed upon that labour in every-day practice by the exchange
of
>>> products." Marx, Capital, Chapter 1, section 4.
>>>
>>> " Activity is a non-additive unit of the corporeal, material
life
>>> of the
>>> material subject. In the narrower sense, i.e., on the
psychological
>>> plane,
>>> it is a unit of life, mediated by mental *reflection*, by an
*image,*
>>> whose
>>> real function is to orientate the subject in the objective
world."
>>> Leontiev,
>>> Activity & Consciousness.
>>>
>>> " The circular nature of the processes effecting the
interaction of
>>> the
>>> organism with the environment has been generally acknowledged. But
>>> the main
>>> thing is not this circular structure as such, but the fact that
the
>>> mental
>>> *reflection* of the objective world is not directly generated by
the
>>> external influences themselves, but by the processes through which
>>> the
>>> subject comes into practical contact with the objective world, and
>>> which
>>> therefore necessarily obey its independent properties,
connections,
>>> and
>>> relations." ibid
>>>
>>> " Thus, individual consciousness as a specifically human form
of the
>>> subjective *reflection* of objective reality may be understood
only
>>> as the
>>> product of those relations and mediacies that arise in the course
>>> of the
>>> establishment and development of society." ibid
>>>
>>> Martin
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca