Re: [xmca] Situation: question for Elina et al

Hey, Andy,
 I am on my way to the conference. I will reply when I get there.
 Interesting and important question! There is always more in translation
than a translation ...:-)
Elina

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Elina,
> Can I pick your Russian brain again please?
>
> In English we have expressions like "sticky situation" or "difficult
> situation." Here "situation" has a definite connotation, which is quite
> distnct from simply "context" or "environment," namely, that there is a kind
> of *problem* or *double bind*. For example: "I was in a difficult situation:
> I had dropped my car key and it might take 10 or 20 minutes to find it, but
> I had to be at the station in just 30 minutes."
>
> When Vygotsky talks about "Social Situation of Development," (Part 2 of Vol
> 5 of LSV CW) is there any basis for taking it that he means "situation" in
> this *problematic* sense? Are there different words in Russian? or can the
> word be used in both senses in Russian, too, and do you think SSD should be
> taken in this way, that is, as meaning a specific kind of double-bind?
>
> Andy
>
> Elina Lampert-Shepel wrote:
>
>> On Jan 22, 2008 2:49 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>
>> So would I be right Elina in thinking that Vygotsky has in mind something
>>> like a new relationship or arrangement of functions in the personality, a
>>> kind of new "configuration" of the whole? rather than a new function or
>>> ability appearing as an additional element of the whole?
>>>
>>
>>
>> I believe so, at least it is my understanding, the development of new
>> psychological function leads to a QUALITATIVE transformation of the whole
>> system of relationships in the previously acquired functions.
>>
>> Maybe "configuration" is better than "formation." There is a lot of debate
>> about how best top translate the German word "Gestalt" into English, and I
>> have heard people say that "Configuration" or "formation" is better than
>> "whole" which is now the usual translation in psychology. This is what is
>> being referred to isn't it, a new "Gestalt"?
>>
>> I believe Vygotsky distinguished lower and higher psychological functions
>> in their origins, structure, the way of functioning and the relation to
>> other psychological functions. By origins, most of the lower mental
>> functions are genetically inherited, by structure they are unmediated, by
>> functioning they are involuntary, and they are isolated from other
>> functions. Higher psychological function is socially acquired, mediated,
>> voluntarily controlled and exists as a relationship in a system of
>> functions
>> rather than as an isolated element.
>> I am not an expert in Gestalt psychology, but I believe there is a claim
>> that some universal structural laws are innate for human perception. If
>> this
>> is true, then it would be wrong to use the concept of Gestalt in reference
>> to higher psychological functions.
>>
>> Late for work... Gone with the wind...:-)
>> Elina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Andy
>>> At 01:39 AM 22/01/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>>> >Andy and Mike,
>>> >I was distracted from being virtually here, so sorry for the delay in my
>>> >response. This is THE question. Indeed. I've been struggling with the
>>> >English word for Vygotsky's "novo-obrazovaniye" ( Literally speaking in
>>> >Russian: 'novo' - new; 'obrazovaniye - creation, with the morpheme
>>> 'obraz'
>>> >actually meaning "image). I used 'neoformation' simply because it was
>>> used
>>> >in the Collected Works, vol.5. There is a problem with purely medical
>>> >connotation. The word 'novoobrazovaniye" does not have it. For me as a
>>> >Russian speaker, there is a process in this word and it is not a
>>> specific
>>> >term related to any discipline, it can be used in a philosophical
>>> statement,
>>> >biological argument as well as poem. I hope I do not bring more
>>> confusion
>>> >than clarification. Maybe other Russian speakers will be more capable...
>>> >
>>> >But I believe that meaning is still more important. Actually, from my
>>> >experience as a 'cultural mediator'/translator, in case of a very
>>> important
>>> >difficult-to-translate notion, it was better to create a term that would
>>> be
>>> >unfamiliar as an indication for the native speakers to pay attention to
>>> the
>>> >meaning making of the concept.
>>> >
>>> >As far as I understand, 'neoformation' for Vygotsky is a dynamic
>>> structure
>>> >that reflects the relationship between central and peripheral lines of
>>> >development. "Neoformation' is often interpreted as a new higher
>>> >psychological function that is developing in a particular age.( See The
>>> >Essential Vygotsky, p.544) I think what is important here is that
>>> Vygotsky
>>> >refers to dialectically developing relationship rather than one single
>>> >function.
>>> >"The processes of development that are more or less directly connected
>>> with
>>> >basic neoformation we shall call central lines of development *at* the
>>> given
>>> >age and all other partial processes and changes occurring at the given
>>> age,
>>> >we shall call peripheral lines of development. Processes that are
>>> central
>>> >lines of development at one age become peripheral lines of development
>>> at
>>> >the following age and conversely, peripheral lines of development of one
>>> age
>>> >
>>> >are brought to the forefront and become central lines since their
>>> meaning
>>> >and relative significance in the total structure of development
>>> changes..."
>>> >(Vol.5, p.197).
>>> >
>>> >For example, the central line of the development of imagination as a
>>> >'neoformation' during pre-school age becomes peripheral in the
>>> elementary
>>> >age. But it seems very important to consider the changed relationship
>>> >between two for an elementary school child.
>>> >
>>> >In activity theory, especially in Learning Activity Theory ( El'konin,
>>> >Davydov, Repkin), 'neoformation' was closely related to the ZPD of the
>>> >historical child at a specific age. For example,theoretical thinking
>>> will
>>> be
>>> > in the ZPD of elementary school student and it will be developed in
>>> the
>>> >process of mastery of Learning activity (inquiry-based/quasi-research
>>> >activity). The development of "neoformation' and mastery of the leading
>>> >activity were dialectically connected: the more developed are the
>>> >reflection, analysis, modeling, and planning as abilities of theoretical
>>> >thinking, the more independent is the student as a learner/subject of
>>> >Learning Activity and vice versa.
>>> >
>>> >Vygotsky constructs the meaning of the notion of 'neoformation' in
>>> relation
>>> >to the concepts of 'crisis of development' and 'cultural development.'
>>> >
>>> >These are my two cents so far or maybe just two 'kopeikas'...:-)
>>> >Elina
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >On Jan 20, 2008 1:50 PM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Very interesting question, Andy. I would like to hear more about this
>>> too.
>>> > > It is linked, among other things, to the issue of central and
>>> peripheral
>>> > > lines of
>>> > > development.
>>> > >
>>> > > Elina?
>>> > > mike
>>> > >
>>> > > On Jan 19, 2008 9:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Elina,
>>> > > > I see you use the word "neoformation." This is not a common word in
>>> > > > English. The OED Online tells me it is a medical word which can
>>> mean
>>> new
>>> > > > tissue which has grown over a wound, or a tumour or such like.
>>> > > > It is possible to see what LSV means when he applies this concept
>>> to
>>> > > > psychology and child development, but can you explain a bit more of
>>> the
>>> > > > connotations of the word to a Russian, please?
>>> > > > Andy
>>> > > > At 11:55 PM 19/01/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>>> > > > >I had no intention to stir any either/or thinking... I agree,
>>> there
>>> > > > should
>>> > > > >be no false dichotomies. As for El'konin-Davydov curriculum and
>>> > > > development
>>> > > > >as a subject of learning activity, there are definitely a lot of
>>> > > > >publications, including even publications from Kharkov laboratory
>>> (
>>> See
>>> > >
>>> > > > >Lampert -Shepel, E. (September-October, 2003) (Ed.) Learning
>>> Activity.
>>> > > > >*Journal
>>> > > > >of Russian and East European Psychology, *41(4)). galina tsukerman
>>> has
>>> > > a
>>> > > > >fantastic book 'Types of communication ( interaction) in teaching
>>> and
>>> > > > >learning [obuchenii]", sorry I do not remeber the exact
>>> translation
>>> of
>>> > > > this
>>> > > > >book's title into English. The title reminds Davydov's book "
>>> Types
>>> of
>>> > > > >generalizations in teaching and learning"
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >In my previous e-mail I was questioning the existence of studies
>>> > > > addressing
>>> > > > >the claim of direct transfer of the abilities developed in the
>>> course
>>> > > of
>>> > > > >quasi-research/learning activity/inquiry to other spheres of life
>>> > > > including
>>> > > > >moral and ethical decision-making, emotional and social
>>> development,
>>> > > etc.
>>> > > > We
>>> > > > >had long conversations with Davydov, Repkin, Galina Tsukerman and
>>> > > others
>>> > > > on
>>> > > > >this issue and there were numerous observations that children
>>> educated
>>> > > in
>>> > > > >the school laboratories ( E-D curriculum) were active learners,
>>> > > > questioning
>>> > > > >the status quo, capable to work collaboratively, comfortable with
>>> > > > >uncertainty, skilled to conceptualize the unknown areas of study,
>>> quite
>>> > >
>>> > > > >comfortably ascending from abstract to concrete...:-) Daniil
>>> Elkonin
>>> > > in
>>> > > > his
>>> > > > >scientific diaries argues that each 'neoformation' developed in
>>> the
>>> > > > course
>>> > > > >of becoming a subject of leading activity transforms the system of
>>> > > > >relationships among previously internalized 'neoformations', and
>>> such
>>> > > > >transformation is qualitative. For example, mastery of
>>> theoretical
>>> > > > thinking
>>> > > > >during the learning activity thansforms the
>>> > > > >previously internalized 'imagination.' If anyone knows specific
>>> > > studies
>>> > > > >addressing this issue, I would highly appreciate the references.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >Anyway, from the previously expressed suggestions and contexts of
>>> > > > learning
>>> > > > >here are some possibilities to collaboratively explore
>>> > > > development/learning;
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >1. Cross-cultural perspective/ conceptualizing tendencies and
>>> meanings
>>> > > in
>>> > > > >development/learning. What are cross-cultural tendencies in
>>> > > > >development/learning emerging from practicing various Vygotsky's
>>> > > inspired
>>> > > > >teaching/research/play/work? ( San Diego, Helsinki, Seoul, New
>>> York,
>>> > > > Moscow,
>>> > > > >...other? or virtual cultures/contexts of being?)
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >2. Teaching and learning in CHAT tradition and life-long
>>> learning.
>>> ( i
>>> > > > was
>>> > > > >excited with the concept in Russia, but English word makes me
>>> > > > >depressed...life-long learning sounds as sentence in
>>> court...sorry,
>>> > > > >reflection on the side)
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >3. David's idea of new data and old masters, i.e.
>>> questioning/critical
>>> > > > >analysis/ development of foundational ideas of development and
>>> learning
>>> > > (
>>> > > > >CHAT) with new data and new perspectives.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >4. "Virtually there..." , collaborations in time and space, new
>>> forms
>>> > > of
>>> > > > >co-being and their impact on the course of learning and
>>> development...
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >5. other?
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >These are just a few thoughts that I irresponsibly suggest...use
>>> or
>>> > > > discard
>>> > > > >if they are out of the context of your thinking...
>>> > > > >Elina
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >On Jan 19, 2008 9:19 PM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > > How about we avoid either/or thinking?
>>> > > > > > Re Davydov/Elkonin.
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > YES, we all need to know about it.
>>> > > > > > But the idea that there is no evidence out there about its
>>> claims is
>>> > > > kind
>>> > > > > > of
>>> > > > > > odd to
>>> > > > > > me. I know a LOT has to be missing,
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > BUT
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > Special issueS of J Russian and East European psych have been
>>> > > devoted
>>> > > > to
>>> > > > > > VVD,
>>> > > > > > and then to people like Galina Tsukerman. the American work of
>>> Jean
>>> > > > > > Shmittau?
>>> > > > > > Why is there an either/or choice here?? Restricted number of
>>> signs?
>>> > >
>>> > > > > > mike
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > PS-- Lets hear if for creative spellers and willing
>>> contributors!
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 5:49 PM, Emily Duvall < emily@uidaho.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > No worries Elina, your question is interesting as well... :-)
>>> > > > > > > I've just been detached from the listserv for a bit.
>>> > > > > > > ~ Em
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>> > > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu ]
>>> > > > > > On
>>> > > > > > > Behalf Of Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:12 PM
>>> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> > > > > > > Cc: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; David Preiss
>>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Re-cycling the idea of a collaborative
>>> papers
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > Thanks, David and Helen! Emily, I am sorry I distracted the
>>> > > > discussion
>>> > > > > > > with
>>> > > > > > > my question!
>>> > > > > > > Elina
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:13 PM, Emily Duvall < emily@uidaho.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > Mike, could you include direction re finding that
>>> discussion?
>>> > > I've
>>> > > > > > been
>>> > > > > > > > out of the loop at bit lately.
>>> > > > > > > > ~ Em
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > Emily Duvall
>>> > > > > > > > Assistant Professor Curriculum & Instruction
>>> > > > > > > > University of Idaho, Coeur d'Alene
>>> > > > > > > > 1000 W. Hubbard Suite 242 | Coeur d'Alene, ID 83814
>>> > > > > > > > T 208 667 2588 | F 208 667 5275 emily@uidaho.edu |
>>> > > > www.cda.uidaho.edu
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > He only earns his freedom and his life, who takes them
>>> every
>>> day
>>> > > > by
>>> > > > > > > storm.
>>> > > > > > > > -- Johann Wolfgang Goethe
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>> > > > > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>>> > > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>> > > > > > > On
>>> > > > > > > > Behalf Of Mike Cole
>>> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:59 PM
>>> > > > > > > > To: David Preiss
>>> > > > > > > > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Re-cycling the idea of a collaborative
>>> > > papers
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > Nice that others are interested in the proposed collective
>>> > > > article
>>> > > > > > > idea.
>>> > > > > > > > I would think that checking out the discussion on
>>> development
>>> > > > between
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > San
>>> > > > > > > > Diego and Helsinki, Kellog and studens and Blunden,
>>> > > > > > > > both his article and ppt presention would be good place to
>>> start
>>> > >
>>> > > > to
>>> > > > > > > > connect.
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > mike
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008 4:17 PM, David Preiss < davidpreiss@uc.cl>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > Mike,I would be delighted to contribute to as well! What
>>> might
>>> > > > be
>>> > > > > > the
>>> > > > > > > > > skeleton of the article? It is such a broad topic!David
>>> Preiss
>>> > >
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > On Jan 18, 2008, at 8:49 PM, MARK DE BOER wrote:
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > Dear Dr. Cole,
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > I'd be interested in this collective article... I am not
>>> as
>>> > > well
>>> > > > > > read
>>> > > > > > > as
>>> > > > > > > > > others, but my experience in the classroom might be of
>>> some
>>> > > > > > > assistance.
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > Best,
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > Mark_______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > David Preiss, Ph.D.
>>> > > > > > > > > Subdirector de Extensión y Comunicaciones
>>> > > > > > > > > Escuela de Psicología
>>> > > > > > > > > Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
>>> > > > > > > > > Av Vicuña Mackenna 4860
>>> > > > > > > > > Macul, Santiago
>>> > > > > > > > > Chile
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > > Fono: 3544605
>>> > > > > > > > > Fax: 3544844
>>> > > > > > > > > e-mail: davidpreiss@uc.cl
>>> > > > > > > > > web personal: http://web.mac.com/ddpreiss/
>>> > > > > > > > > web institucional: http://www.epuc.cl/profesores/dpreiss
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > --
>>> > > > > > > Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>> > > > > > > Assistant Professor
>>> > > > > > > Graduate School of Education
>>> > > > > > > Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
>>> > > > > > > Mercy College
>>> > > > > > > 66 West 35th Street
>>> > > > > > > New York, NY 10001
>>> > > > > > > (212) 615 3367
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one
>>> end of
>>> > >
>>> > > > > > > it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what
>>> a
>>> > > > > > > violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take
>>> it,
>>> > > > > > > fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only
>>> then
>>> it
>>> > > > > > > is free to be a violin string.
>>> > > > > > > Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > > >
>>> > > > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >--
>>> > > > >Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>> > > > >Assistant Professor
>>> > > > >Graduate School of Education
>>> > > > >Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
>>> > > > >Mercy College
>>> > > > >66 West 35th Street
>>> > > > >New York, NY 10001
>>> > > > >(212) 615 3367
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>>> > > > >it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
>>> > > > >violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
>>> > > > >fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
>>> > > > >is free to be a violin string.
>>> > > > > Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>>> > > > >_______________________________________________
>>> > > > >xmca mailing list
>>> > > > >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Andy Blunden :
>>> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/<http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>>
>>>
>>> <http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>>>tel
>>> > > (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
>>> > > > mobile 0409 358 651
>>> > > >
>>> > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > xmca mailing list
>>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Elina Lampert-Shepel
>>> >Assistant Professor
>>> >Graduate School of Education
>>> >Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
>>> >Mercy College
>>> >66 West 35th Street
>>> >New York, NY 10001
>>> >(212) 615 3367
>>> >
>>> >I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
>>> >it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
>>> >violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
>>> >fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
>>> >is free to be a violin string.
>>> > Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >xmca mailing list
>>> >xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> >http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>> Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
>>> mobile 0409 358 651
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>

-- 
Elina Lampert-Shepel
Assistant Professor
Graduate School of Education
Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
Mercy College
66 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 615 3367
I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
is free to be a violin string.
Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca