Re: [xmca] Vygotsky's historicism

From: Andy Blunden <ablunden who-is-at mira.net>
Date: Sun Apr 06 2008 - 19:07:40 PDT

David, these kind of words can mean all sorts of things to different
people, but if we are working in a tradition which stretches from Marx to
Ilyenkov we should really stick to the meanings established in that
tradition so far as possible, or confusion reigns, which only a
philosophical polyglot like yourself could cope with.

In that context ...

1. The contrast of ideal to material is simply a mistaken one. It does not
help at all.

2. Why take a really fundamental word like "ideal" and mix it up with
something like "potential" which apparently depends on the categories of
human, mind, life, experience and construction? And what kind of
instantiation can an ideal have which is not material at least in the same
way that anything else is material? I don't see how either Plato or
Halliday need to come into this.

3. The abstract/concrete relation is a different contrast again, a very
important one but a different issue altogether from the problem of the ideal.

4. Mike was asking for us all to find some points to agree to set out from
to clarify the differences if there are any. I personally don't see any
problem with talking about "psychological functions". I am not a
psychologist, but I think there is a large distance separating the
necessary step of beginning to concretise an abstract notion of the psyche
by means of notions of psychological functions, from there to a
"functionalism." There is, IMHO, no great sin in analysing a complex whole
in terms of a functional analysis, as part of a whole project of research
which includes structural analysis, historical analysis, social critique,
etc., etc. The problem only comes if functions are taken to be the
explanatory principle and/or if the whole is deemed to be maintained in a
dynamic equilibrium by means of functional subsystems arising from
resolution of various forms of instability which define the relevant
function, that is, to go over in toto to a functionalist ideology.

Andy

At 04:24 PM 6/04/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Andy--
>
> Since the ideal can also be material, how does the ideal/material
> distinction help to distinguish what is artefact from what is nature? Did
> I get you right?
>
> I always think of the ideal in terms of the potential. I suppose for
> most people (including Halliday) this would imply that somehow the
> material is one possible instantiation of the ideal, and this leads to a
> distinctly Platonic world view.
>
> But that's not how I see it at all. I think of the potential as
> something that the human mind constructs directly on the basis of real,
> lived experience. In a sense, the ideal is an abstract instantiation of
> the material rather than the material being a concrete instantiation of
> the ideal.
>
> I suppose I'm in big trouble now!
>
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
>
>
>Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> I think part of the difficulty with getting people to accept that unity of
>material and ideal is that people generally take ideal to be almost
>synonymous with "subjective" or "in consciousness" whereas "material"
>simply means "outside of and independent of consciousness". For us,
>however, "ideal" can also be material, distinguishing what is artifact from
>what is nature.
>
>Andy
>At 02:37 PM 6/04/2008 -0700, Mike Cole wrote:
> >Andy tells me that my attempts to color code do not work any better than
> >my ideas! :-) I'll see if caps help in the future.
> >
> >Andy-- I intepreted Martin's interpretion to derive from our earlier
> >discussions of material/ideal psychologies and the effort to supercede them
> >with a new psychology a la LSV. In that disucssion we started to come to
> >a position that consciousness emerges from interaction between
> >human organism and environment and in THAT sense is objective. Probably
> >just another of my confusions, probably.
> >mike
> >
> >On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Andy Blunden
> ><ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >>I don't really know what it would mean to say that "consciousness is ...
> >>objective." If consciousness is objective what is not objective, what is
> >>subjective? Activity is objective for sure, but if we say "consciousness
> >>is objective" surely we destroy the very meaning of subject and object,
> >>not just a distinction or a dichotomy.
> >>
> >>Classical German philosophy offered several solutions to this problem
> >>represented by Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Hegel and Marx. The
> >>"consciousness is ... objective" solution, i.e., erasing the difference
> >>between subjective and objective is, I think, the Schelling solution,
> >>which I see as a declaration that there ought not to be such a problem.
> >>But the fact is that there is such a problem, namely intelligent, active
> >>human beings with some kind of ability to have conceptions of the world.
> >>How is it so?
> >>
> >>Andy
> >>
> >>
> >>At 01:48 PM 6/04/2008 -0700, you wrote:
> >>>I like that formulation a lot, Martin. Little chance to gain general
> >>>agreement, but perhaps a chance
> >>>for some finer grained pointers toward a more satisfactory formulation.
> >>>
> >>>thanks
> >>>mike
> >>>
> >>>On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Martin Packer
> >>><packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Mike,
> >>> >
> >>> > No, I agree with your characterization of "embryology onwards..."
> When V
> >>> > writes of "psychological [mental] functions" perhaps the problem is
> with
> >>> > me rather than him, but it's very easy to take for granted that
> perception,
> >>> > attention, memory, emotion, thought are distinct mental systems. We all
> >>> > seem to know exactly what each one is, and we think we can consider
> them
> >>> > separately.
> >>> >
> >>> > OK, let's assume the problem is with me. So V immediately redefines
> >>> > psychological functions as "forms of the activity of consciousness." In
> >>> > Sasha's terms, this would be "object-directed activity," no? If
> >>> > consciousness is real and objective, to be located in the interaction
> >>> > between person and environment, as I have argued, then the
> different forms
> >>> > of its activity would also be real and objective, always aspects of
> a whole,
> >>> > albeit one that is organized differently over ontogenesis.
> >>> >
> >>> > Martin
> >>> >
> >>> > On 4/6/08 1:29 PM, "Mike Cole"
> >>> <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > Martin and Sasha-
> >>> > >
> >>> > > I am having trouble following all the differernt threads and have
> this
> >>> > > ideait would be a good idea
> >>> > > to summarize where we think each of them stands in terms of points
> >>> > > agreed upon, appoints clearly
> >>> > > disagreed about, and points of confusion (on the assumption we can
> >>> > > distinguish)!! A brief comment on
> >>> > > a move made here by Martin that strikes me as a misdirection: I
> Bold in
> >>> > > red the part I want to focus on below.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Martin Packer
> >>> <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> Hi Sasha,
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> I would like to respond to just two of the points in your message,
> >>> > though
> >>> > >> I
> >>> > >> think they are central. The first is something I've begun to think
> >>> > about
> >>> > >> but
> >>> > >> have not taken very far.* It has been troubling me that Vygotsky
> >>> adopts a
> >>> > >> notion of "psychological functions" which seems from the start to
> >>> > divide
> >>> > >> consciousness into separate components which then have to be
> stitched
> >>> > back
> >>> > >> together again.* I've been Goggling without much success to try to
> >>> > >> discover
> >>> > >> the history of this 'functionalism,' and some of it seems to be
> >>> > medieval,
> >>> > >> some of it even Greek (though perhaps the translations can be
> >>> > >> questioned?).
> >>> > >> I'd welcome eduction on this from any/everybody out there!
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Where does this idea come from? We don'[t need lsv to know that at
> >>> > birth, and before
> >>> > > birth for normal term infants, that the different "psychological
> >>> > functions" are no "separate
> >>> > > components". From early embryology onward (at least!!) we are dealing
> >>> > with a complex,
> >>> > > morphologically and functionally differentiated organism|environment
> >>> > (even layers of
> >>> > > envrionment), the CONFIGURATIONS of which change over development. We
> >>> > are not talking
> >>> > > about stitching together Frankenstein here, we are talking about
> >>> organic evolution. Both
> >>> > > organism, "its" enviroment, and their inter-relationships are all and
> >>> > always changing vis a vis each other.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > That is how I understand the starting point of our analysis. Is
> >>> this not something we can agree upon?
> >>> > > And if not, what is a formulation we might be able to start with??
> >>> > > mike
> >>> > >
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> It seems that one would indeed, as you sugest, want to both
> start and
> >>> > end
> >>> > >> with monism: the neonate doesn't have distinct fuctions such as
> >>> memory,
> >>> > >> attention, emotion. The adult has a smoothly integrated system
> of such
> >>> > >> functions. It's certainly the case that Vygotsky avoided trying to
> >>> > analyse
> >>> > >> these functions separately, and indeed insisted in Thought and
> >>> Language
> >>> > >> that
> >>> > >> what was new in his appoach was that it was the study of their
> >>> > >> *relations*.
> >>> > >> For example, although Thought & Language seems to be a study of two
> >>> > >> distinct
> >>> > >> functions and their interrelation, Vygotsky began the book by
> >>> insisting
> >>> > >> that
> >>> > >> consciousness has to be understood as a unity of functions and
> >>> that any
> >>> > >> analysis of these two has to be conducted against a background
> of all
> >>> > the
> >>> > >> others.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> But why talk of "functions" at all?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> On 4/2/08 3:54 PM, "Alexander Surmava"
> >>> <monada@netvox.ru> wrote:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>> To correspond this
> >>> > >>> statement with dialectical logic we have to turn it upside down and
> >>> > >> state
> >>> > >>> something like this: perception is an abstract form of conceptual
> >>> > >> thinking
> >>> > >>> while ³multiple psychological functions?do not ³work
> together?lt;br>>>> > because
> >>> > >> they
> >>> > >>> do not exist anywhere beyond multiple psychological theories.
> (By the
> >>> > >> way,
> >>> > >>> A.Leont¹ev in his late years realized the necessity of formulation
> >>> > >> basically
> >>> > >>> new, monistic, not knocked together from different ³psychological
> >>> > >> functions?lt;br>>>> > >>> psychological theory but let this task
> to us ?his successors.)
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Your second point is that we need to pay attention not just to
> the ape
> >>> > but
> >>> > >> also to the man. Here too I fully agree with you. When I read
> Vygotsky
> >>> > it
> >>> > >> is
> >>> > >> with later thinkers in view, though for me it is not Leont'ev but
> >>> > thinkers
> >>> > >> (and actors) such as Bourdieu and Foucault. I'm not suggesting this
> >>> > choice
> >>> > >> of thinkers is better than yours, only that it's easier for me
> because
> >>> > >> these
> >>> > >> later thinkers are located within work I am more familiar with,
> >>> such as
> >>> > >> critical theory and phenomenology.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> Martin
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>> When the fact of development take place, when after Kant do
> >>> > >>> appear firstly Hegel and lately Marx we have only one chance to
> >>> > >> understand
> >>> > >>> both later thinker and his predecessor starting from the later,
> more
> >>> > >>> developed theory. It sounds as paradox, but that is objective
> >>> > >> dialectical
> >>> > >>> paradox of the process of cognition.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> _______________________________________________
> >>> > >> xmca mailing list
> >>> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> > >>
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>> > > xmca mailing list
> >>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > xmca mailing list
> >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> >
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>xmca mailing list
> >>>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >> Andy Blunden :
> >> http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3
> >> 9380 9435, mobile 0409 358 651
>
>Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
>mobile 0409 358 651
>
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster
>Total Access, No Cost.
>_______________________________________________
>xmca mailing list
>xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

  Andy Blunden : http://home.mira.net/~andy/ tel (H) +61 3 9380 9435,
mobile 0409 358 651

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Received on Sun Apr 6 19:09 PDT 2008

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Thu May 01 2008 - 17:14:13 PDT