Re: [xmca] Re: Boris assists Mike assists Eric

From: Mike Cole <lchcmike who-is-at gmail.com>
Date: Sun Nov 25 2007 - 18:51:16 PST

Wonderful question, Lisa.
There are several generations of interconnected scholars and scholarship
intertwined here. I have written about the relationships you are asking
about
in a PRIOR generation (Jean Lave and I have a long history of collaboration
which goes back to 1966 and which you can find traces of if you google
jean on lchc.ucsd.edu, but I have never interacted with Etienne so far
as I can remember (my memory being unreliable as already established
in this discussion early today-- or tomorrow-- depending on where you live).

I can post the short form of my take on the relationship between terms such
as activity, practice, situation, context, etc from Cultural Psychology, but
there
is a more extended form that I could access but only by scanning a pdf. And
even
then, all of this predates Wenger's recent work. So, no ANSWERS but some
parts of achieving a contemporary aNSWER could be provided.

Question: What is the contemporary (2006/2007) relationship between the
ideas
of Lave and Wenger? I have zero idea.
mike

On Nov 25, 2007 6:42 PM, Lisa Kuh <lpk2@u.washington.edu> wrote:

> As Wenger (and Lave) have recently been entered into the conversation, I
> shift from the conversatin on identity and pose a question that has been
> on
> my mind for a while regarding the relationship between Wenger's focus on
> characteristics of "practice" and a CHAT perspective on "activity".
> Having
> moved a bit between a theoretical lens that looks at teacher collaboration
> via a community of practice perspective and an activity theory
> perspective,
> I am wondering if folks have any thoughts about the relationship between
> these two. How does Wenger's conception of practice- a community of
> practice - fit with CHAT? Wenger, in his notes from Ch. 1 in Communities
> of
> Practice: Learning, Meaning, and Identity distinguishes his work from
> activity theory and states:
>
> "I would argue that our actions do not achieve their meanings in and of
> themselves, but rather in the context of a broader process of negotiation.
> By startging iwth practice as a context for the negotiation of meaning, I
> do
> not assume that activities carry their own meaning. This is one reason
> that I will not take discrete activities, or even systems of activities,
> as
> a fundamental unit of analysis. In this reagrd, theories based on
> practice
> have a different onotological foundation than activity theory." (He cites
> Leont'ev 1981 and Wertsch, 1985).
>
> Yet, I have spoken to many who belive that Wenger "counts" as activity
> theory. Any clarification on this would be most helpful to my work.
>
> Lisa P. Kuh, M.Ed.
> Eliot-Pearson Children's School
> Tufts University
> PhD Candidate, Teacher Education
> University of Washington
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> To: "Wolff-Michael Roth" <mroth@uvic.ca>
> Cc: <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Boris assists Mike assists Eric
>
>
> Oh Gosh! I forgot something and only hedged with "as I recall." !! And my
> copy of the book was not 5 minutes, but 10 miles away.
> Sloppy sloppy. :-(
> Sigh.
>
> Thanks for your lesson in using the environment to remember, Michael.
> Thanks for your selection of quotes, Adam.
>
> Going through all the places where identity is invoked in the book, I come
> away confused about warrants for statements
> about identity that imply claims about subjectivity as seen from the
> perspective of the individual. They quote Cain about the way
> "a person understands and views himself" but how does this fit with the
> epistemological position from the p. 53 quote?
>
> Similarly, these statements confuse me:
> In the section on motivation and identity (starts on 110) they claim that
> motivation is linked to "an increasing sense of identity as a master
> practitioner" (111). Later in that same section they adamantly argue
> against
> a "view of 'self' as object" or schooling practices that view a learner's
> identity as "an explicit object of change" (112).
>
> what view of identity is used in the first statement? How others view and
> position one
> as a master practitioner of one's understanding and views of himself? If
> the
> latter, what
> is the evidentiary basis for such a claim?
>
> I assume the purport of the p. 112 statement is to focus on participation
> in
> practices as the
> desired focus of efforts to promote change. "Self" does not appear in the
> index.
>
> It was my impression (no checking any refs or past messages as I write
> this)
> that in our discussion
> vis a vis identity as a concept, we were in part addressing its double
> sided
> nature, as created by
> others and by the conscious/self-conscious individual acting in the world.
> How does a social ontology
> get you the later perspective? The answer is probably obvious to those in
> the know. I am not one of them.
> Some members of xmca are.
> mike
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2007 5:20 PM, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 24-Nov-07, at 12:52 PM, Tony Whitson wrote:
> >
> > Identity is one of the most central and prominent themes in Wenger's
> work.
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Nov 2007, Mike Cole wrote:
> >
> > I am not sure how our multi-log has helped your understanding, Eric, but
> >
> > glad it was useful to you.
> >
> > As I understand them, Lave and Wenger espouse a social ontology and I
> > do not recall them having talked about identity.
> >
> > I you looked at the index of their book, you would find a lot of
> entries,
> > a number of them in bold. I don't want to be picky, but don't we want to
> > have informed discussions. I knew they were all about identity, and it
> > took
> > me only 5 seconds to go to the book shelves, get the book and find the
> > index
> > entry.
> > :-)
> > Michael
> >
> > But they do use the quasi
> > dimension, peripheral-->central which implies some sort of common set
> > of social norms and expectations, a.k.a. superego bound up with what
> > is considered central.
> >
> > Being peripheral (what might have been refered to at other times as
> > marginal)
> > is not all that bad a subject position. Some might even argue that it
> > provides
> > a privileged view of the workings of the system that is human life.
> > mike
> >
> > On Nov 24, 2007 12:20 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow, Boris & Mike:
> >
> > That is truely enlightening. I appreciate the formation of the ideal
> that
> > has evolved from this discourse. I was floundering at first Mike,
> > regarding your comment on superego, but having read and reread the post
> > from Boris I now concur that personality research is not for the
> > collective
> > but rather for the understanding of cultural influences upon
> development.
> > Mike, in your opinion does Lave and Wagner's research on legitimate
> > peripheral participation assist in the research pertaining to identity?
> >
> > Thank you Andy for beginning this fabulous thread
> >
> > grateful for the discourse,
> > not dead yet,
> > eric
> >
> >
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > cc: Boris Meshcheryakov <borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > bcc:
> > Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> > "Mike Cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > 11/23/2007 08:50 AM PST
> > Please respond to mcole <font size=-1></font>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In red below is my attempt at translation of a note from Boris
> > Mescheryakov
> > re identity and personality in LSV. Boris, whose work you can read in
> the
> > Companion to Vygotsky and elsewhere
> > was kind enough to look up relevant passages from LSV. I probably have
> not
> > done the translation justice, but most all of this exists in English and
> > others more knowledgeable of Russian
> > can straighten things out.
> >
> > It appears were are dealing with issues that are not usefully reduced to
> > either or....... again.
> > mike
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Boris Meshcheryakov < borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > Date: Nov 23, 2007 12:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: [xmca] Vygotsky on Identity?
> > To: Mike Cole <mcole@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> >
> > Здравствуй, Mike.
> > По-видимому, правы те, кто считает, что проблема идентичности,
> > идентификации, самоопределения (самодетерминации) не были
> самостоятельным
> > предметом размышлений и исследований Выготского. Могу лишь предложить
> > некоторые его высказывания о развитии личности и самосознании (эту связь
> > Выготский четко описывал):
> >
> > Apparently, those who believe that the problem of identity,
> > identification,
> > self determination were not independent subjects of thought and
> > investigation by LSV are correct. I can only propos a few of his
> > statements
> > on the development of personality and self consciousness (this
> connection
> > Vygotsky clearly did describe)
> >
> >
> > ?...отличие ребенка от подростка может быть лучше всего выражено
> > положением
> > Гегеля, который различал вещи в себе и вещи для себя. Он говорил, что
> все
> > вещи суть сначала в себе, но на этом дело не останавливается и в
> процессе
> > развития вещь превращается в вещь для себя. Так, говорил он, человек в
> > себе
> > есть ребенок, задача которого состоит не в том, чтобы оставаться в этом
> > абстрактном и неразвитом "в себе", а в том, чтобы стать также и для себя
> > тем, чем он пока есть лишь в себе, именно стать свободным и разумным
> > существом. Вот это превращение ребенка из человека в себе в подростка ?
> > человека для себя ? и составляет главное содержание всего кризиса
> > переходного возраста. Это есть эпоха созревания личности и
> > мировоззрения...?
> > (Педология подростка, Собр. соч., т. 4, с. 199).
> >
> > "the difference between child and adolescent may be best expressed by
> > Hegel's position that distinguished things in themselves and things for
> > oneself. He said that the all things are initially in themselves, but
> > matters do not stop at this point and in the process of development the
> > thing turns into a thing for onself. Thus, he said, a person (man) in
> > himself is a child, whose task is to leave behind that abstract and
> > undeveloped "in himself" and in so doing, in order to become for himself
> > in
> > a way that he is in the meantime only in himself, that is, to become a
> > free
> > and intelligent being. This very transformation of the child into an
> adult
> > (man) in himself in the adolescent -- a person (man) for himself--
> > constitutes the major content of the entire crisis of this transitional
> > age.
> > It is an epoch of the maturation of personality and world view (Pedology
> > of
> > the Adolescent, Comp Works, v4, p. 199)
> >
> > "Личность становится для себя тем, что она есть в себе, через то, что
> она
> > предъявляет для других. Это и есть процесс становления личности"
> (История
> > развития ВПФ, Собр. соч., т. 3, с. 144). (A) Personality becomes for
> > itself, when it has previously been in itself, through what it
> > manifests
> > through others (History of Dev of HPF, Coll. Works, Vol 3, p. 144)
> >
> > Очень важное добавление из "Истории развития ВПФ": "The following
> addition
> > from same work is very important:
> >
> > ?Дж. Болдуин справедливо отметил, что понятие о "я" развивается у
> ребенка
> > из
> > понятия о других. Понятие ?личность? есть, т.о., социальное, отраженное
> > понятие, строящееся на основе того, что ребенок применяет по отношению к
> > самому себе те приемы приспособления, которые он применяет по отношению
> к
> > другим. Вот почему можно сказать, что личность есть социальное в нас?
> (т.
> > 3, с. 324/ жирн. шрифт мой ? Б.М.).
> >
> > James Baldwin correctly noted that the concept of "I" develops in a
> child
> > from the concept of others. The concept, personality, that is, the
> social,
> > reflected, concept, is built on the basis of the fact that the child
> uses
> > in
> > relationship to himself those means of adaptation which he uses in
> > relationship to others. This is why it is possible to say that
> personality
> > is the social in us. (vol 3, p. 324)
> >
> >
> >
> > Из "Психологического словаря" Варшавы и Выготского (1931) >From Varshava
> > and
> > Vygotsky (1931) *Psychological Dictionary*:
> >
> > "Идентификация (Фрейд) - отождествление, уподобление себя другой
> личности,
> > приписывание себе признаков определенного человека. Идентификация играет
> > огромную роль в сновидениях, в творчестве, в мечтах. Психологический
> смысл
> > И. сводится к расширению круга переживаний, к обогащению внутреннего
> > опыта".
> >
> > Identification (Freud) - the equating, making similar, of oneself to
> > another
> > personality, the adoption by oneself of the characteristics of a
> specific
> > person. Identification plays a huge role in reminisences, dreams and
> > creativity. The psychological sense of identification comes down to the
> > widening of one's circle of experiences (perezhivania), to the
> enrichment
> > of
> > innner life.
> >
> > "Личность - термин, означающий единство и индивидуальность всех
> жизненных
> > и
> > психологических проявлений человека; человек, сознающий сам себя как
> > определенное индивидуальное единство и тождество во всех процессах
> > изменения, происходящих в организме и психике, есть личность. Болезнь Л.
> > выражается в распаде этого единства"
> >
> > Personality is a term indicating a unity in the indivualenss of all
> > everyday
> > life and psychological manifestation of persons; a person (man)
> accepting
> > himself as a certain individual unity and entity in all processes of
> > change
> > that take place in the organism and the psyche - this is personality.
> > Disease of personality is expressed in the disintegration of this unity.
> >
> > И еще: В "Психологии искусства" в главе о "Гамлете" Выготский
> акцентирует
> > понятие "второго рождения" . В работах А.Н. Леонтьева тоже встречается
> > этот
> > термин в связи с развитием самосознания в подростковом возрасте. And
> > also:
> > In *Psychology of Art *in the chapter on Hamlet Vygotsky accentuates the
> > concept, "second birth." In the works of AN Leontiev one also encounters
> > this term in connection with the development of selfconsciousness during
> > adolescence.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > С уважением,
> >
> > Б.М.
> > mailto:borlogic@orexovo.net <borlogic@orexovo.net><borlogic@orexovo.net>
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tony Whitson
> > UD School of Education
> > NEWARK DE 19716
> >
> > twhitson@udel.edu
> > _______________________________
> >
> > "those who fail to reread
> > are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
> > -- Roland Barthes, S/Z
> > (1970)_______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
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Received on Sun Nov 25 18:52 PST 2007

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