Re: [xmca] Sinto Buli!

From: Mike Cole (
Date: Fri Mar 16 2007 - 10:43:35 PST

Hi Mark.
You might google Krashen on the homepage. I found a dozen or
references in discussions going back a way.

And you might google Gordon Wells the same way. He has been active here for
a long
time and may have written things of special relevance.

(I believe he has a paper on the xmca home page "papers for discussion"
page, but
may be mis-remembering)


On 3/14/07, Mark <> wrote:
> Thank you David,
> Actually I wasn't sure what was happening between our posts, I'm in a
> position, being new, and halfway through an MA, not sure of what to
> believe
> anymore. Or what to think of this whole EFL scenario either.
> Point taken.
> I do agree about Krashen, and yes, although I was trying to do some
> comparisons, I do think that my comparisons were not accurate. As I said
> to
> you before, there has become so much gray in the otherwise old black and
> white that it seems all smoke and mirrors. I'll leave Krashen out of it.
> and
> Nation too.
> My belief is that there is a methodology in TEFL/TESL that can be brought
> about by Vygotsky and his concept of ZPD. This will be my dissertation and
> although there is some preliminary links already made between Vygotsky and
> methodology, the current world of EFL doesn't seem to accept it. And
> Vygotsky being virtually non-existent in Japan (I think they much have the
> same views as the Koreans when it comes to their thinking), regardless of
> how inaccurate or how inappropriate the teaching methods are - they are so
> embedded in the culture that it will take so long to change - I am saying
> this because change is inevitable if EFL is going to become anything more
> than just a school subject to be studied for a test.
> I have found a few books incredibly interesting
> Wells, G. (1999) 'Dialogic Inquiry'. Cambridge University Press.
> Cambridge,
> UK.
> Ohta, A.S. (2001) 'Second Language Acquisition Processes in the
> Classroom'.
> Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. Mahwah, NJ.
> Halliday, M.A.K. (1975) 'Learning how to Mean'. Edward Arnold Ltd. London,
> UK. (maybe this applies to your final comment about being more interested
> in
> what the children can do and mean rather than in what they understand).
> I have just started to delve into Wells, so I'm not sure what it will
> bring
> me, but I'm looking forward to it. Although I'm interested in how the ZPD
> concept can bring about changes to methodology, I also need to make sure
> that the methodology and approach proposed will work. Your final comment
> for
> me is so important from that regard, since methodology in EFL doesn't
> focus
> on the what they can do and mean aspect.
> Being in the northern part of Japan, I am of the unfortunate position of
> not
> being able to buy anything remotely foreign. I love my fruit, especially
> mangoes, but the quality of anything that is non-Japanese is atrocious.
> Thanks for your reply. Being new, well, I'll accept the 'newbie position'
> for the time being, or until at least I can find my footing. Then, at
> least
> I'll be able to stand my ground.
> Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Kellogg" <>
> To: "xcma" <>
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:42 AM
> Subject: [xmca] Sinto Buli!
> > Sorry, Mark. I didn't mean to be the one who beats up on the new kid. I
> > was a new kid for many years on this list (just lurking and ordering
> books
> > and reading them everytime somebody mentioned a long Russian name). And
> I
> > still (as you can see) post things that are really out in left field as
> > far as most people on the list are concerned.
> >
> > But by now you've probably read enough so that you realize that XCMA is
> > far more concerned with what Vygotsky thought than with what Krashen
> > thinks, and that to describe Vygotsky as "child centred" is in many ways
> > highly misleading (as you can see if you read Mike's contribution to the
> > discussion of how Vygotsky did his concept formation experiments), and
> > that when I say the Klingons won the Cold War, I'm really talking about
> > the Yanks.
> >
> > All of which might make you think that my complaints about Krashen and
> > Florida oranges are simple anti-Americanism. There is, perhaps,
> something
> > of that, since I was born in the USA and have never really gotten over
> it,
> > but I want to suggest that there is a lot more to it. This year the
> > Florida harvest is particularly tasteless, and is being dumped at below
> > production costs on our shores. By happy coincidence, the harvest of
> > hallabongs (the sweet, luscious misshapen grape-fruit sized tangerines
> > that grow on the slopes of Mount Halla on Cheju Island, in the South Sea
> > off the main peninsula of Korea) is not very good this year, so they are
> > comparable prices. And most people agree with me, they would rather eat
> a
> > sour hallabong than a tasteless Florida navel, even though they are not
> > American.
> >
> > Partly this is the Korean sentiment of "sinto buli", which roughly
> > translates as "body and soil are not two!", in other words, if you are
> of
> > Korean body, you should eat products of the Korean soil. This is
> expressed
> > in other ways as well. When Koreans die, they bury their bodies in the
> > ground, and when they sacrifice to the ancestors, they EAT the
> offerings,
> > because, of course, it all ends up in the same place.
> >
> > Now, I think the key problem of foreign language teaching here in Asia
> is
> > related to this. Body and soil are not two, and body and mind are not
> two
> > too. We need ways of making an apparently FOREIGN language assimilable
> by
> > Korean minds. This is why there is endless discussion of whether English
> > is a case of English as a Second Language or English as a Foreign
> Language
> > or English as an International Language.
> >
> > It's none of the above. It's a school subject, and as a school subject
> it
> > will inevitably be assimilated (in children's minds and in teacher's
> > minds) to the other subjects of the curriculum. That is the way it is,
> and
> > that is the way it should be, because of "sinto buli".
> >
> > You write of Nation's work on comprehensibility and you assume that
> this
> > is directly applicable to "i + 1". Even if I accepted that it was, I
> could
> > not accept that "i + 1" is applicable to what I do. You see, the 95% of
> > what Nation is talking about is a imported language, and I believe that
> > language is a matter of "hunsin buli" (that is, body and mind are not
> > two). Right now I am more interested in what the children can do and
> mean
> > than in what they "understand" (whatever that means).
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
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